Interview with Courtney English: Sensory Dysregulation with a Pediatric OT

Speaker 1: 0:10

Hey guys, this is Sarah. Welcome back to the Preview Alliance podcast, and today I have a really special guest and we're going to talk about a topic that I'm sure everybody has dealt with. But first I want to introduce her for me. Welcome to the Preview Alliance podcast, thank you. Thanks for having me. I'm super excited. So I DM'd Courtney on Instagram, where our relationship started. That way it is not dead people to DM people and they reply back. And because I myself, as a mom, was like drawn towards your content about essentially sensory nervous regulation and just like your open honesty about your journey. So let's catch our listeners kind of up to speed. Tell us a little about you, your journey and why your Instagram is blowing up.

Speaker 2: 0:58

Okay, well, I am a pediatric OT. I originally was not a pediatric OT, I was a OT that worked in hand therapy. So I started off with my journey in occupational therapy working in a hand clinic with surgeons and would do make splints and do therapy with them. But then I got pregnant during the pandemic and so I worked throughout the pandemic but then, after I had my daughter, I just really suffered with like a lot of postpartum anxiety and some depression also, and so I felt like I had a lot of developmental anxiety. I guess Some people could say about your child like you're anxious and worried. Am I doing everything? Right? Everything feels like it's on you to manage all of their appointments and their development. And so I had had experience working with neurodivergent individuals, like as a nanny while I was in grad school. So I was like let's just make the switch.

Speaker 2: 1:51

So I decided to go into pediatrics and just kind of like taught myself everything because I had this drive and this motivation, like intrinsically because of my daughter, and I wanted to support her and I thought it would help with my anxiety because that was one of my coping mechanisms. Right, like, okay, I'm going to research everything and then I'm going to like do all the things that I need to do to prevent anything bad from happening or like just to make sure everything's going well. So that's kind of how I transitioned into pediatrics and you know, at the beginning, when I first started the whole first year. So it was just like really just learning everything, taking a bunch of courses, just asking for help with like mentors. I still have a mentor at my work that I go to all the time.

Speaker 2: 2:31

She's incredible has taught me a lot of stuff about just regulation in the nervous system and whatnot. So I just started posting tips for parents because I thought maybe it would like help parents if they have like different ideas or maybe like a different approach to understanding your child's development and like their sensory system and what they need from you or the environment or whatever, in order to just feel calm and regulated and feel safe. And I feel like safe is like a big word that we're using recently, just like in the world when it comes to nervous system. Regulation is like the feeling of feeling safe and feeling like everything's okay. So that's kind of like a short version of this.

Speaker 1: 3:12

I love that. I can just babble for a little bit. We love that. So one thing that resonated with me, and I'm sure a lot of moms are going to okay, me too is the milestones right. When it starts super early and I know what it did for me and my anxiety is okay. When are they rolling? When are they going to sit up, like the things that I feel like they just handed me my oldest and honestly, they definitely just handed me my youngest. They're like, oh, you got this, because they find out your parent have one already. And I'm like, wait, you know, I don't know anything about milestones, I don't know how to help him get to a milestone. And I did a lot of comparison, like if, say, a friend had a baby at the same time, or an Instagram influencer had a baby at the same time as you, you kind of naturally go, okay, wait, they're kids sitting, mine's not. So what do you think if you could go back? So court me, you know, knowing what she knows now having your daughter.

Speaker 1: 4:09

What would you maybe done differently? Or what's your advice to moms who are going? Okay, yeah, that stresses me out. I'm excited to right now about milestones.

Speaker 2: 4:16

Yeah, I think that it's like the mental load of becoming a new mom in general is just like there's so much that you have to take in and learn and change your routines and it's all new, and so it can be so overwhelming because you feel like you're having to dive into all these different areas and learn everything. But in regards to milestones, I feel like for me, it's almost like if you take that mental load off about worrying about the milestones and you just worry about, like the connection between you and your child because you're their co regulator, right? A baby, a newborn, is born into the world and their sensory system is developing as soon as they're born, like they're adjusting to the light, the sound and, as parents were their regulators, were their co regulators, and we're teaching them and soothing them, bouncing them and talking to them. And I think that's like the most important thing, even from like newborn to infancy, like making sure that you are connected with your child and I think that that connection helps with your anxiety. And, yes, it's good to make sure that you're keeping up with the milestones, but I feel like the biggest thing that I understood when I was learning everything when I switched to pediatrics, was like for newborns.

Speaker 2: 5:24

There's a lot of things, obviously, that you have to pay attention to, but movement is so important and so just floor time with your child right, like laying on their back, laying on their side doing tummy time, or doing tummy time on your lap, like just making sure that you're exposing them to having their body be in different positions, and just being cute and silly and playing with them in those positions so that you can help their body understand where they're at in space and with their development.

Speaker 2: 5:51

Those worry milestones can really like trigger a lot of anxiety because you're like, okay, this is what they need to be doing. I don't even know how to like give the opportunity for them to start doing this or to help them with that, but really, when a child is born neurologically, like they will develop as long as you give them the opportunity to develop. So, like floor time is a great way for them to just have that experience, to do that. And I mean I'm not going to take away from all the other important things, but I just think that if you could focus on one thing, it's floor time and connection and exposing your baby to different like experiences, like going on walks and, like you know, laying in the bassinet and just looking at the trees going by, like just those simple things, like it doesn't have to be a special creative activity. You know, it's really just the experience of the world and having someone to help you, to co-regulate with you through it.

Speaker 1: 6:44

And I think you've hit on an important part is, I think, us as moms we were never taught about our own sensory system how to co-regulate. And it's hard, right when we're experiencing depression and anxiety or just you know the baby blues is. You know, we know everybody goes through the baby blues, you know so it's triggering, right when your baby's crying and you're just like I don't know what's wrong. I don't know how to make this better for you.

Speaker 2: 7:10

That was a huge trigger for me which I was too amped up, so I would just kind of pass. I'd be like, okay, I've tried everything, because you're like going through the list, right, I fed them, I changed them, they slept, you know all the things. And then it's like I'm still dysregulated, so my child's dysregulated, so maybe my husband's calmer, and as soon as I hand the baby over, it's like the baby's fine.

Speaker 1: 7:31

And then you feel shame, right, because you're like, oh my gosh, I'm the mom, I can't do it. I'm the mom, I can't do it. And then you get these negative thoughts in your head and it does Like I remember that I remember my husband or my mom taking will and I'm just like I'm a failure. And no one at that point because I hadn't reached out for help knew the extent of what I was suffering. And I can probably guess with you probably people didn't realize the extent either, because we tend to hide it right.

Speaker 2: 7:57

Very well, or people are like they're a new mom.

Speaker 2: 7:59

It's the nerves or you kind of get that free state right when you're like I'm going to withdraw and like freeze and kind of like isolate myself, which is, you know, even worse, because then you're isolating yourself and you're really like sitting with that, all of that on your own, so which is like another state of the nervous system, is like that freeze state, like you can have that panic, anxiety and then you can have that freeze state too. And I feel like I did that kind of, I kind of like hid for a little bit and like everyone was probably like well, I haven't heard from Courtney in a while. I just had a baby and I'm busy, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 1: 8:32

When do you think you're in anxiety? If you look back, maybe deep for you.

Speaker 2: 8:37

I would say when I returned to work, I did three months and then I went back to work and it was almost like physiologically I wasn't ready, like even though I was like healed and everything like my nervous system, you know, it was like the breastfeeding and then pumping at work and being away from her and like I would just feel nauseous when I would pump at work and then it was like anxious about it.

Speaker 2: 9:03

My pump parts, touch anything is sterile, like is that going to harm her? And then I just felt guilty for not going back to work or I would feel guilty for staying home, and it's just like that constant guilt that I think a lot of moms feel right. It's like I feel guilty if I do something and then I feel guilty if I don't do it. And I think that that's when it peaked and I started having like this panic which then turned into kind of like a health anxiety thing. The panic made me think that there was something wrong with me and I like went to all these doctors and they're like it's anxiety. I was like no, like my heart like I feel like I'm going to have a heart attack sometimes. You know which they're like you're healthy, we've done all the tests, you know, and it just made me realize that it was my nervous system setting off those same physical signs and symptoms of other actual health conditions and issues you know.

Speaker 1: 9:50

But what did you do? So the moms who sit in here going okay, yeah, I'll have me raise? In their hands. What did you do to make it better or to start seeing like, okay, it's not going to be like this forever?

Speaker 2: 10:01

Okay, I'm thinking back. Well, I'm a research person, so, like I did a lot of research trying to figure out, like, what I could do. And the first thing that I started doing, which my husband encouraged me to do, was in the morning, before you go to work or whatever, you set aside a time to exercise in some way, so I would either go on a walk or I would work out or I would do something at home, like either like a yoga video or something, or I would just sit and listen to music and read or something. There had to be a time where I was either like calming my brain or I was moving my body to help give my brain those hormones, or like those you know, to produce the hormones for the serotonin and everything for that to make me feel calm and regulated. And so that just became a routine. And it's interesting because then when I would go off my routine, I could tell I could sense my nervous system would sense a threat more often, and I would see that like I would be sitting and I'd all of a sudden like feel a heart palpitation, I mean go, but I think, aside from that, like adding in that little piece of like time and not feeling guilty about it and being like I'm doing this for me to be more present and for me to be more calm when I'm with my child. So I have to do this in order to be my best version of myself. So I shouldn't feel guilty about it, cause it's like the only way that I can get there is by giving time to myself and working and communicating with my husband on that.

Speaker 2: 11:28

But I did some research and I actually ended up going to a neuro wellness center because I was convinced that I had some type of dysautonomic disease or condition which I ended up finding out it was, you know, anxiety, but those manifests very similarly. So what we ended up doing is a lot of like I would go in and I would lay on my back and they would put this like sound thing on my head and I had like headphones for me learning how to deep breathe, and we did all these different like exercises to help activate my parasympathetic nervous system which when I would leave I would feel so great. I even did like a oxygen chamber just to try it out. I don't really know, you know, I don't know if they read behind it, but I felt came out and I was like I felt good. Maybe I felt good because of oxygen or maybe because of the oxygen and I like couldn't do anything but just like breathe and relax when I was in there. So it's really just like taking that time out.

Speaker 2: 12:23

And then, over time, I started to realize that what really truly helped me in the end is recognizing what's dysregulating to me and recognizing what is regulating to me so I can modify my lifestyle. I can modify my routines, my work life balance and learning how to say no, because I tend to say yes and then I'm overwhelmed and to realize that's not my fault. You know, it's not my fault if I have to say no because I can't. If I take on all of that, then I'm, it's just not functional for me, you know. So I think that's super important, you know, recognizing what dysregulates you and what regulates you and then making the modifications for yourself and your family.

Speaker 1: 13:06

I love that. Okay, let's break down regulated versus dysregulated. So, mom, how would she start saying, okay, what are some things that can go in each bucket for their life?

Speaker 2: 13:16

So like dysregulation can look, like really anything that impacts your function right, or makes you feel fear, or those intrusive thoughts or whatever is coming into your head, things that really are just not good feeling, right, it's not a good feeling. So for me my signs of dysregulation are like I start to get hot, my face will get red and hot, my heart rate increases. I had this obsession with checking my blood pressure for a while cause I was like I know it's high, you know, but really when I relaxed and laid down it was fine. It was just like that sympathetic system activating. So like that was my how I knew that I was dysregulated or I would start to kind of feel dizzy cause I had a lot of physical symptoms.

Speaker 2: 13:58

But it could just be like you being irritable towards someone, like you know. Oh, like I just kind of like maybe lashed out at someone, but I didn't mean to. I just was dysregulated because I had like 20 things circling in my brain and my brain the demand. I had no extra room for anything else. So it's like I'm dysregulated when I have too many things going on. So I need to modify that and I need to decrease my demands and I do a visual schedule, you know, in my phone, and so I look at it and I'm like, if that's too much, I just move it to a different day, then I don't have to worry about it, right, cause it's like, well, I already moved it to another day, so there's no reason to think about it anymore. That's what's helped me, because a lot of moms who get like you know that mom brain, I feel like it's a sensory overload because your brain can't process all the things and remember it. So it impacts your executive functioning, your decision making. It impacts everything, you know, absolutely.

Speaker 1: 14:51

I mean, I feel like that all the time. I'm like I'm more forgetful than I've ever been my whole life, right? And then sometimes I have to. I remember I and I've been very open all this podcast. Also, the listeners are this is not going to shock them, but I remember I yelled this out the other day I'm like I am so tired of being the keeper of where every single saying in this house If it needs to be replaced or scheduled, like it was just a moment, and I think someone just asked where like the toilet paper was, you know, and I was just like right but it is your, your, your holding that, all that in your head, and then, you're right.

Speaker 1: 15:26

So then something else comes into it and there's literally no space.

Speaker 2: 15:30

Yes, there's like there's no room. It's literally like, you know, when you're filling up like a water balloon and you're like just a little bit more and it's like boom, it bursts and your water balloon popped and now it's a mess and you have to clean it up. That's like the panic attack, just regulation you know happening. And it's like I did too much and my nervous system shut down, so now no communications coming in and nothing's coming out. I just have to get back to a safe state which is like that calm, regulated state.

Speaker 1: 16:01

So how? And I think too, it's like you know, maybe you're she's not an angry mom, maybe she's a dysregulated mom, right. Like because I think we see that in ourselves and I've seen it myself where I'm just like Sarah. You know I was like why did I react that way? Yeah and to me it's often like trying to get the kids to school in the morning, right, and it's like we're rushing or hurrying and I don't want to forget this and that and then it's a car seat battle or you know, you forget something or a shoe gets missed or something happens and it is.

Speaker 1: 16:32

It is that tipping point. So let's just talk about, like, some things moms we know about getting up early, taking that time for ourselves, and I erase their. They're like okay, you know, my kid wakes up five times. Yes, we know this, we are kids wake up to it. Yes, but knowing how you would feel so much better to handle that fifth wake up, you know, if you were headed such a day I like to cold plunge. I just started that. That helps my nervous system a lot.

Speaker 2: 16:59

It feels so good, it's like so awful at the first second, that it feels amazing after her.

Speaker 1: 17:04

What else can we do? And, even better, what can we do with our kids? Because we want to start teaching them this and I know your Instagram's got so many awesome tools, tricks, tips but, what else can we start doing to help that mom brain? Play with our kids, teach them the sensory and just kind of stop the cycle right, because I think we're all starting to know these terms and we're like going aha that's us, courtney, let's fix it.

Speaker 2: 17:29

Yes. So I feel like one thing that I started doing with Daniela, which is my daughter, is we started getting these interactive books for around bedtime, because I felt like at night she would kind of get a little wiggly and be like, oh, I don't want to go to bed, I still need to move my body a little bit more. And we started doing these interactive yoga books that shows the position on it, or like them doing the action in the pictures, and then you press a button and it has a song that comes along with it. And it was really fun because we both did it together and we all know that it's very regulating, right, your weight bearing for your muscles. You're getting that proprioceptive input and, just like, holding those positions helps release those good chemicals in your brain so that you feel it steady and safe in that regulated state. That was one of the things that I added into our routine Really just like and everyone says it too like. Just like getting out and going on walks, and in the winter it's harder. So that's why I like those types of things like the yoga books. I also like Cosmic Kids Yoga, which we have like a little exercise placed downstairs and so like. When that's done, I'll probably put on like something like that for her, like so she can do something while I'm working out and there's so many wonderful moms on social media who post themselves setting up their child with something while they work out. And if you don't have the ability to have someone watch your child so you can do it, how can you do it with your child so that they're a part of it? And that's another part of like.

Speaker 2: 18:56

Regulation I work on with parents is like how to include your child in your routine so that they're doing heavy work with you. Like you know, switching the laundry over, pushing the laundry basket, like putting at the grocery store, like you give them the item and they throw it in the car. You know, like those types of things. Like you're connecting and then you're providing heavy work. And I think that is just like just a general concept of like. How can I still do this with my child? Like normalize it right, like this is just normal. You don't always have to be creating all these wonderful, which is great to do, but these like really detailed activities and stuff for your kid, because really it's just like including them in your day and having them be like an active participant, so you have that connection, because I think that connection also helps Right, like when you're really connected with your child and everyone's happy and you're laughing about something or you're doing a game and it's silly, and that's where you truly feel like that safe connection.

Speaker 2: 19:52

But what I've done, like in the moment when I'm feeling that like dysregulation happening, like maybe my heart starts beating fast because something from the environment or my situation tipped off my nervous system to kind of shift me into that fight or flight State, is I stop and I pause and I give myself a second and I just realize I have to tell myself like I'm not having a heart attack, I'm just something's bothering me, I'm dysregulated, and then I take five deep breaths. Sometimes I like squeeze my hands together. I have like this, like needle fidget that sometimes like I squeeze or play with or I just use like my daughter's playdough, and I just give myself that time to just be consciously aware that I am safe. Because I think sometimes what happens is our mental load is so big and we're so busy that we don't have a chance to step away, to actually realize that the science that we're receiving from our nervous system is setting off an alarm and I can activate my calm system to be turned back on. Because you know, we do shift between those three states of our nervous system Every day. Right, we wake up in our sympathetic nervous system kind of alerts us and gets us like, oh, like I need to wake up for the day. Sometimes that shift can be hard, but we do shift between them and it's it's natural to do that. But what's not is when you get stuck in one and you can't get out and then you spiral and it's like a chronic state of dysregulation. So I think just like being aware and just taking that pause, and just that awareness in itself is therapeutic.

Speaker 2: 21:22

And then, you know, adding in your own heavy work and moving your body or doing your mindfulness activities, whatever that may be, can be very helpful. Like we do a lot of like crafts, but not like fancy crafts. I buy like the premium crafts because it's like it takes some, you know, load off me. I don't have to think about it, and everyone's like, wait, you're the OT, you should have all the cool activities I was like I do at work and at home. You know it's got to be simple.

Speaker 2: 21:48

So, yeah, I know there's like the thing is. It's like there's a you know we have all these gold standards for what can help you, but really it's like understanding the concept behind it, because it doesn't apply to everyone, right, everyone's lives and routines are different. And, like how can I understand this concept of regulation versus dysregulation, and how can I be more in tune with how my body is reacting to certain environments or situations? That's like the first step to really like being able to move forward from it, or at least that was for me and that's what I know. I 100% when I give them that time to pause and have them like really be like understanding how they feel, versus like just being like, oh it's okay, like you're fine, you know everything's okay when they're like I don't feel fine. And then we, you know, sometimes we'll sit down and be like feel my heart's beating so fast. You know it's beating fast, I feel hot, like it makes me feel scared, and then we give ourselves that time through co regulation to kind of get back to that calm state.

Speaker 2: 22:47

And I also think that a lot of it is we move so fast that these days, right, it's like I used to live in the city. Now I live in the suburbs of Chicago, but it was like boom, boom, boom, boom, like in the elevator you're down, you're in the car and you know you're out and you're in the stroller and then you're trying to move and navigate everything and there's so many transitions, and transitions are hard for children and adults too. So I think that that's something to take into consideration and that I noticed a huge improvement in my regulation when we moved to the city of Chicago, but it just felt so much peace. You know and I know that's not the same like people are city people and they love the city, which I do too. But just you know, if I can't modify that, how can I modify something else in my life to kind of get myself to that calm state?

Speaker 1: 23:32

And I love heavy work and that was a new concept and I think you put on one of your Instagrams. But it's just and I, because no one had ever said that to me they're like well, you know, you like us physically need heavy work, and that's I'm going to butcher the definition, but it's essentially just like pushing, pulling, lifting, like it's physicality.

Speaker 2: 23:51

Yeah, it's just being able to create like resistance in your muscle tendon joints. So you feel that like resistance and you're contracting your joints and it's just that output of like heavy work, where your muscles have to work against something resistant. If you're right, now, heavy work is great because usually it's functional, right. So it's not just like some kids are like, oh, you're a sensory seeker, like have them jump on a trampoline. But sometimes that could be more dysregulating because although it's rhythmic and predictable, sometimes it's not predictable.

Speaker 2: 24:20

You might fall off or, you know, you might not be regulating yourself, but maybe, like the trampoline is a part of the obstacle course and we have to do like five of them and then we move on to something else and there's an end goal, right, like we're trying to carry a puzzle piece through to get to the end, to complete it. And I think that's why, like as adults, like for me, cleaning is regulating, because it's like I have an end goal and it's purposeful, but I'm also getting heavy work. So just like thinking about it in that way too, like how can I make it functional and purposeful and add a cognitive piece into it? Because then the brain and body you're increasing that communication between the brain and the body just to help with that calming sense and feeling.

Speaker 1: 25:01

I love that, do you find? So you've often found a dysregulated mom may have a dysregulated kid and vice versa, right, do you usually see? It's this you know they bring them in and you may be looking at the mom going OK, I can see, yes, the same patterns, the patterns right, like detecting the patterns. Yeah.

Speaker 1: 25:22

And so if we're wanting to start, if we're noticing that because I noticed when I get dysregulated, especially my oldest, which that was, you know, and I think it'd be interested to see if you've seen this in your practice he came in with my son's actually my first one really did in a traumatic fashion.

Speaker 1: 25:38

And I feel like my body was always in bite or freeze from that and I wondered if that you know with him and my interaction. So I was kind of wondering how early do we maybe start seeing this? You know, is it like birth on for the moms and the kids? And like, when do you start seeing like the kids here going OK, yeah, we need to work on dysregulation skills right now. Like, what age is it where you're seeing it?

Speaker 2: 26:03

I mean as a child, from like newborn to infancy, you know, to like their preschool age and everything. I think that we ship between those states right From when we're born to forever. You know it's natural to shift through them and I think the issue is like I've said before, I think it's just like when we get stuck and we can't get out of it. So dysregulation and self-regulation skills, those are ever evolving and changing. But I think this might answer your question when it impacts your function and your ability to participate in your everyday life and in, like, your happiness, then it's an issue and then we need to work on self-regulation skills.

Speaker 2: 26:46

You know, like that's one I you know because people come in and it's like, ok, so tell me what's been going on, and there's usually like a problem, like oh, like this is a consistent problem.

Speaker 2: 26:55

We can't get past it. So then we know, ok, like let's look and see the whole picture and do the full evaluation of, like your child sensory profile, their demands, their skill levels, because sometimes it's like we see dysregulation, because they have other challenges with, like motor planning and maybe they're struggling and stressed out at school because, like everyone else is like finishing their cutting activity before me and I have a hard time with motor planning or like my motor skills, and so that's even more dysregulating to me, and so those two are paired together because they do work together in the brain also. So I think that once you see a functional impact, you're like OK, like maybe we need to look and see if someone can help us get a bigger picture and figure out where we need to start with that bottom up approach, from like a sensory lens, of how we can help. It's crazy, all all.

Speaker 1: 27:49

OTs. Are they like you, like, I mean, are this, you know, like, so involved? Like OK, I'm going to find a. Ot listen to this podcast and Courtney's awesome and, like I'm one of you, sensory work with my kid. Is this a standard or is this something we need to like, seek out and when we're asking, oh geez, like all geez, all OTs will like evaluate those things.

Speaker 2: 28:08

I feel like sensory is kind of like, you know, it's like the bottom of our pyramid. We need to be able to see how a child is processing their environment through their senses in order to see if it's impacting their skills Right. So all OTs are trained to do that. It's just, you know, the more experience you get with kids, the more you're able to understand like, oh, like this is directly impacting this or this may be contributing to this skill that this child is kind of stuck with. You know, being able to improve and you know we have all these new courses and I think that, like the CEUs are so important because I just took this course when I first started and it changed my whole perspective on how I work with neurodivergent individuals and, like you evaluate their strengths, then you look at the areas that need improvement and you use the strengths to get you there, instead of saying like, oh, these are the deficits.

Speaker 2: 29:02

Even when I do evaluations, I don't look at, like, the results, like I'm looking at how he performed during the activities, because that tells me so much more than the results.

Speaker 2: 29:12

The results are just standardized, which you know it's good to have as a baseline and to know. But parents see those results and they get really upset and so I try to tell them like, try not to focus on that, because it's just a number and we're just looking at how they participate and we're going to take their strengths and we're going to help them get up to speed or whatever to help with their function. But yes, all OTs are trained in that and I mean I, I love like collaborating and talking to other OTs, because I feel like I thought that I knew a lot and then I talked to another OT and I'm like, oh, I like have so much more to learn. Like it's just crazy, like the perspective that HOT has. And if you bring all your perspectives together, I feel like it's just incredible because there's so many different ways that you can evaluate, assess, adapt, modify to help a child with development or to help regulate a nervous system.

Speaker 1: 30:08

So and this is not taught. You know, I this was never taught to me, you know, and I don't think in like schools they're really looking at kids and giving them sensory breaks, or you know, I think it's the demands to sit still and have 30 minutes of activity. And I have two boys and you know we are constantly, if you know us, we are constantly on the move in the sense of, like they need to move their body, like my boys, when they sit still, our behavior drastically gets worse. And so I think let's talk to, like maybe the school age parents right, let's talk to them right now, because we've got moms who's got all A's listening. So let's say you know, what is some things that maybe they could teach their kid, you know, because it's not a great environment, but what is maybe some little things that their kid could start implementing in their school day or before their school day, and then maybe they could work with their teacher and be like OK, so if he needs to do X, how can he communicate that?

Speaker 2: 31:07

Or is it?

Speaker 1: 31:07

like a little fidget or something I don't know, just some kind of ideas, because I'm thinking ahead. My oldest is starting kindergarten next year and I want him to have that skill.

Speaker 2: 31:19

What has really helped with my clients that I work with, because I've actually seen them transition now, like we went from, like you know, preschool like couple days a week, couple hours, to like kindergarten, first grade, and I'm seeing like this huge, like burnout in them because they're coming home and they're chewing through their shirts and they're, like you know, they're just so dysregulated they're having meltdowns, like because they're so overwhelmed from all of the demands at school. And so the one thing it sounds so simple but really helped is giving them the power to ask for a break when they need it. And I always need time. I go into a school it's usually there now but they have like a corner where, like a cozy corner or something, where it's like I just need to take a break, and so, like if I sense that a child is getting dysregulated in my session, I'll be like, oh, it looks like, do you maybe want to take a break? Is that something that you want to do? I'll suggest it and see if, and then usually they'll go right over there and take a break and I'll be like just let me know when you're ready and we can. We can either finish it, clean it up or do something new and I think, like in school, having that mindset of like I can take a break and I can either go into the corner or like the cozy corner, or maybe I could just take a break from the activity in itself. And they have these aids at school now, which you know. I collaborate a lot with these aids and I'm like, oh, like you know, you might need to just take them out in the hallway and go for a nice little walk or maybe, like they just will do some coloring or something. That's like non demanding. It's like that mindfulness, like taking that mindfulness break, is really helpful.

Speaker 2: 32:47

But I've also educated teachers on, like how you can plan out your day and your routines to help your children stay regulated so that they can focus and pay attention, because if you just keep going, the information will be missed. There's really no point in forcing it, because once the brain is overloaded and it hasn't had time to just like process, no more information is going to come in, it's not going to be received and remembered, you know. So we'll go over like different activities that they can do, like we had these like movement cards where, like, everyone would stand up and go to the circle and they would do like a movement break. There's a really great resource called Go Noodle which I recommend to some of my parents or the teachers.

Speaker 2: 33:32

But really I think just the power of taking a break and also just like implementing like heavy work into the classroom schedule, right, like when I had a couple of kids who were having a hard time transitioning from, like this class to that class and so, like they just took a box and we were like let's put all your books in the box and you have to push your box down to the next one and they're like, wow, it helps so much because before in the hallway they would, you know, they'd be like, oh, they're being disruptive, or you know all these behaviors Like well, no, they just didn't like they just need, couldn't, organize themselves in their bodies to like stop what they were doing, start something new and initiate that. So by adding that in it gives them a job, a purpose and something else to like focus on. And they're doing heavy work. And so I think like if you really can change like the routine and build those sensory routines into the day, it can make such a huge difference.

Speaker 1: 34:22

Totally, and I think boys especially get labeled. A lot from my like, my knowledge of just being a boy mom and of just saying, while they're wild or they don't listen. So I've really been trying to get more knowledge and I mean scrolling your Instagram, for sure, and learning these things and trying to have open conversations with teachers and being like what are we doing?

Speaker 1: 34:49

I think you know, chewing on the shirt, like I've noticed my oldest, sometimes when he's overwhelmed he'll chew on his shirt. What's some other things that you notice kids do, kind of when they're dysregulated and overwhelmed, just to help parents go. Okay, maybe that's a sign my kids showing me. I didn't know.

Speaker 2: 35:03

Well, definitely like any type of like oral stimulation. I feel like it's like you know, chewing or sucking on anything, especially the school age kids. We see them like chewing through their pencils, which now they've designed like these pencil toppers that you can put on top of the pencil until they can chew on that. So you're actually getting resistance and it's like a little bit more functional. But other signs I would say would just like be unable to focus or pay attention. That could be a sign of dysregulation, because I can't focus in a tent. So now I may be a peer like, I may appear like I'm distracting others and disrupting the classroom, but really I'm just dysregulated and I either need to take a break, need like something to like help me shift in my chair a little bit more, modify like the desk or where the child is sitting, like there just needs to be a modification in order for them to like still kind of meet those sensory needs while they're in class. But they're not disruptive, which I, you know, that's one of the things is. I come in and they're like, oh, like the main problem is in school we're having such a hard time. They say he's disruptive, but it's really not. They're not disruptive, they're just dysregulated, you know, and that may seem like they're being disruptive because of that. So that's another sign.

Speaker 2: 36:09

You know, those big emotions also, just like their posture, like if they're like, you know, heads down, like maybe like they're just exhausted and dysregulated so like they literally can't support their body up in space.

Speaker 2: 36:22

There's just like a never ending list. Like you know, some kids they'll have oral overload, or or like they're just like their mouth's open and they might like be like drooling, or you know they might just be acting silly. And you're like why are you acting so silly right now? You know, like out of nowhere, it's just a switch and they're silly or asking for things like that they know that they can't have. You know, just all these, there's all these things that we see, kids, and so really, I guess it would be something that's like not a very, it's kind of abnormal behavior, that it doesn't really fit the context or the environment. And you're like why are like? Why are you doing this right now? You know, not like it's a bad thing, but like hmm, I'm wondering why you're struggling to like either pay attention or just you're not acting like yourself that could mean that they're dysregulated.

Speaker 1: 37:07

So how do you say that to your child? Because I'm shaking my head going huh, yeah. So, like how to approach that with your child, right? So like what's your next step with your daughter? So you're noticing that, like extreme silliness, and you're like what's, what's going on, like what does mom Courtney do? Like what is that?

Speaker 2: 37:23

Yes, my daughter will get like a little silly and she'll kind of like tilt her head upside down and she'll just kind of like wiggle around and might like bump into things and I'm like, oh, we're feeling so silly. So, like I want to identify at first, right, I want to bring to your awareness that, like, maybe you feel silly right now. Do you feel silly or do you feel something else? Like this is what I think. How are you feeling? And identifying that first.

Speaker 2: 37:43

And then my favorite thing to say in X is like I wonder like I love that phrase I wonder what we could do to move our body. If you're feeling silly and you need to move your body, I wonder if we did some climb and crash, or I wonder if we did a movement activity. Or how do you want to move your body? Like because now you're collaborators, right, I'm not instructing you. You need to do these exercises or activities so that you can be regulated. It's like now I'm trying to help guide your thinking so that you can recognize when I'm feeling silly. And now there's things that can kind of help me meet those needs that I'm showing you, that I may not realize. I'm showing you because I'm not aware of my own dysregulation, so you're trying to kind of help point it out and then guide them in that direction to help them think of it on their own with like you kind of like Thank you, bringing it to their awareness and offering options.

Speaker 2: 38:37

And not all options work for every child. You really kind of have to know their sensory profile, what they need cause some children might need typically all children respond well to organized movement but some kids just need so much more movement to even be at a place to focus or to pay attention. Pay attention, like some kids like are too. They say like their bodies are moving so fast they can't slow down and focus. But some kids need so much to just feel like like they can hold themselves up and like focus and pay attention. And that's kind of like the sensory cup method that I teach and talk to my parents about, which I'm working on like a guide to kind of help explain that right now it's taking people home.

Speaker 1: 39:24

Let us know when that's available yes, yes, let us know.

Speaker 2: 39:27

Yes, well, it's taking me a while because I have such a scientific thought, like everything to me is like so science driven, and like I understand it at that level, because that's just what makes sense to me. It's difficult for me to put it in terms for parents to understand it. It's what I've been working on, like on my own time too, because I feel like it's really hard sometimes to explain it, cause it makes sense in my brain. But the sensory cups help us understand, like what threshold our child needs for each system, each sensory system, and so we know if they have like a smaller cup, maybe for auditory processing. So maybe like I can't tolerate a lot of auditory input because I'm either distracted or it sets off my nervous system, so I know that I can't tolerate it. So I need to modify the environment or I need to maybe like do something that's regulating, like, maybe like heavy work, while I'm trying to tolerate this sense, you know, just to kind of balance the nervous system. Or maybe a child like they're saying, oh, like they won't sit down and participate in circle time. Well, like maybe they have like a bigger cup for movement in order to sit down for carpet time, like we have to fill that cup up to that just right level for them to sit down, because it's not like they're sensitive, like they need more to be able to sit down.

Speaker 2: 40:43

So I'm working on like a whole, like visual presentation of that and kind of like a flow chart, because I feel like that's what would help me if I was a parent who didn't know I need like a flow chart to kind of show me how I can be the assessor and how I can problem solve through this, because there's a lot of great information out there by so many wonderful OTs and it's so great, but I wonder how others digest it. And so I'm like maybe my approach will help, maybe it won't, but I'm working on kind of like a flow chart for that, just to kind of help with the problem solving. Some routine examples and just a lot of visuals, because I feel like that's why people like you know social media so much, cause the content's visual. I see myself doing the blanket parachute with my child. That's easy, I watched it. Now I'm going to just replicate it.

Speaker 1: 41:29

I mean, that's exactly what I did is. I watched what you did and I was like she's got this, let me do this, and it is. It makes us cause, I think goes back to our anxiety and depression and just like our mental loads of mom, right, we just we go to our experts, our trusted resources, like you, and we say I don't have to be an expert, she is in this and I'm going to take her information and I'm going to learn it in an easy way and I'm going to empower myself. And that's how I dealt with my anxiety too. Right, I wanted to empower, I want to take control of that and I'm so excited about that. So we are definitely and we're wrapping this up because I know our listeners, you know we're moms, so we're like, everywhere and everywhere, what we always ask our guest is and this can be anything. We've had all types of responses, so no set box here what is something you wish you would have known before you're a mom? Like, what is the one thing before you came to mom you wishing it?

Speaker 2: 42:21

Let's see. Wow, that's a really great question. I feel like I wish I would have known that it's really not possible to do all of the things that a mom has to do and it's okay, right, like just being okay with knowing that the demands and all the things that we have to do, like sometimes it's just not possible and that's okay because you know, like I think we just have to give ourselves grace, you know, and I wish that I would have known that before I had my daughter, because I was before I had my daughter, you know, in my career and everything I was like everything I had everything together, right, I had my schedule, I had my classes booked out for going to workouts, I had, like you know, my social schedule and everything and everything always usually typically worked out just fine, like my vacations, but like when you have a child, your whole life changes for in a wonderful way because they bring so much joy. But you really have to just give yourself grace because it's not gonna be the same. It's a transition and it's okay, because I think some people think, oh, I need to be the person I was before, but I think that what I needed to do was give myself grace and accept the fact that I was going to be a different and better, improved person once I figured out how to do that, you know, and then everything was gonna be okay. That's what I always tell myself. I'm like everything's gonna be fine, Like it'll be fine. If I just tell myself that'll be fine, it'll be fine because at least, even if it's not, I'll be calm, you know. So I just really have to like tell myself things a lot of the time just like it's going to be okay, because actually I learned this from someone else, I watched it on the podcast or saw on social media.

Speaker 2: 43:55

But what helped me a lot with my anxiety is like you can't be anxious. You can be anxious about things that may happen and anticipate, of things happening or not going right, but you can't actually be anxious in the moment. You know what I'm saying. Like right now, in this moment, like if I'm present in the moment, I can't be anxious about what's happening right now because I'm fine, right, and you know it took me a while to process that and understand that and apply it to me, but it kind of resonated with me because it made a lot of sense, right. It's like, oh, if I just focus on the present and maybe I have my list and my schedule for later on, I don't have to worry about that, because right now I've like already got that figured out. So that's why I like give myself extra time to organize my schedule, because it just helps with regulation.

Speaker 1: 44:41

Yeah, so, that was like a long answer, but just to give you-, no, I love it because there's so much we. I wish we. I know I was like gosh. I have my own, everybody has their own that you're just like. I wish somebody would have told me or I wish I would have recognized it or believed it even I thank you for being so open about your change and the anxiety. And you know there is a light at the end of the tunnel, you know, and it's the mom who's suffering, or, you know, worried about her child, and now know about sensory right. They know about dysregulation. They're like maybe they cried in the car because of how they responded to their child, because they're dysregulated. This morning I'm really hoping this conversation has opened up people's ears and minds and hearts to explore this and tell the listeners where to find you on Instagram.

Speaker 2: 45:28

So my Instagram handle is CourtneyEnglishot, and that's the same for TikTok too, because I also post on TikTok as well.

Speaker 1: 45:38

And then we'll stay tuned for your guide, but check us out on Instagram. We'll be working with Courtney and all week for you guys to see some fun things that you can implement, and your child and Courtney's gonna have some special surprises for you guys. So we appreciate so much for Courtney Pleasure truly.

Speaker 2: 45:56

Thank you so much. Thank you so much.

Speaker 1: 45:58

I really enjoyed it Okay, guys, till next week.

Speaker 3: 46:02

Installation is. Fate forced me to slept crying people those day. Ma'am Deixaever, the night you die, come to use it. Issues relevant to pregnancy and postpartum. Join us and hear how other moms have overcome mental health challenges, as well as access tips and suggestions on dealing with your own challenges as moms. You can also browse our podcast library and listen to previous episodes at any time. Please know you're not alone on this journey. We're here to help.