Are Moms Burnt Out or Are We Codependent?

Speaker 1: 0:10

Hey guys, welcome to Preview Alliance podcast. This is Sarah and Whitney, and we have a very special guest, so me and Whitney know her. You guys have never met her, but if you're a Preview Alliance mom, odds are that you have been able to be served with therapy because of her. So this is Hannah Welcome. Thanks for having me.

Speaker 3: 0:31

We're so happy to have you.

Speaker 1: 0:33

We love you and we are so excited for your knowledge today, and so this is going to be we're going to start doing kind of a conversation on the podcast, more of common themes that we are seeing that, yes, we are maternal mental health focused, right, but there's always layers to us, for sure, and so something that I'll call myself out I've struggled with is codependency, mm-hmm, so I'm not allowed to this.

Speaker 3: 1:01

Nope, you are not.

Speaker 1: 1:03

And this is something that you're like. Well, what does that mean? What is it? And it's something I didn't know until, actually, hannah brought it up to me in a way I understood and I said, come on the podcast, because, again, as moms, how we were raised, our generation, generational right, we got to talk about it. Absolutely so, before we get into it, hannah tell us about you and give them a little bit of a who is Hannah, oh God that's a little question so um best boss ever my name is

Speaker 2: 1:33

Hannah Stiltner. I'm actually originally from Southern Virginia, which, you know, brings it makes it interesting, right, Because I've lived in different places and I can see every place I've lived how issues show up more frequently, Right, AKA, codependency in the South is a big thing. I mean, even being in Southern Virginia, I saw it. Honestly, though, here the overarching theme is a lot of and it's generational Absolutely Southern. You know, moms that were massive caretakers, handled everything. You know it was very traditional and codependency shows up in different ways. We'll talk about how it develops in different ways.

Speaker 2: 2:10

But, yeah, so I just had my own journey, honestly long story of how I even ended up in this career, but I feel like it kind of picked me. I definitely don't think I picked it, but it was where I was meant to be. But I would say that, of all the schooling and experiences and places I've worked personally, I feel like my own. You know there's valleys and peaks, right, and the valleys made the biggest difference in helping other people and have a deeper understanding, because I've also not just, like, talked about it and read about it because you know, but I've lived through those things. So I'm just thankful to be able to do it every day, honestly, and you're a mom and I'm a mom.

Speaker 1: 2:52

Yes, yeah, so she gets it she does she, gets it, she's been it. She's the postpartum stages the infertility infertility.

Speaker 4: 3:06

And as our kids grow.

Speaker 1: 3:06

We know it's a new season, new challenge for sure.

Speaker 2: 3:07

So now you're in the school age years, I have an interesting dynamic. I have two boys that are literally out of high school, um, one's in college and one started his own little business. Very different personalities, both wonderful. And then we had jolie, who is now six and she is completely all the things bought into one. Yes, so, and I'm much older now versus when they were like I'm tired. Um but no, it's been a cool way to kind of see it from both aspects too.

Speaker 1: 3:39

Now, what you know I will say before we get into this is you know, when I first approached you about hey, I have this previous idea and mom's seeing things, you said absolutely because you recognize that moms were not speaking up about their mental health.

Speaker 2: 3:56

No, it's. I feel like there's a shame, unnecessary shame and guilt and call that codependency or just call it like pressure. We put unnecessary pressure, I think. But nobody wants to say like this is hard sometimes, or right, my kids drive me crazy and they think that that's like makes you a bad mom maybe, right, um, instead of that's just human, yeah, like you can love your kids wholeheartedly, right and just like anybody else, and they don't drive you crazy some days because we're human. So I think the human aspect it's just like all the other areas of mental health, right. This is like the one where it's so hard for women to say I need help, which also correlates with codependency.

Speaker 2: 4:43

Absolutely Not knowing how to ask for help, not knowing that your feelings and needs matter, and that is just like it's just not even consciously in the mind to think that way, and that is something before I forget what situation we were talking about.

Speaker 1: 4:59

And it was brought upon that, yeah, what is codependent? And yes, that is me. And then I was thinking I was talking to Hannah about it more. I was like where did this start and Sarah, and why is it now presenting in motherhood so blatantly?

Speaker 3: 5:14

It's like am I burnt?

Speaker 1: 5:16

out, or am I codependent? And that is actually the title of this episode. So let's dive right in.

Speaker 2: 5:22

Okay, one of the things that we talk about too a lot of the practice is you have to go back to go forward and a lot of people are like, oh, you know forward thinking. Every single person has their own what I call like computer stored memories that they're not even. It's deeply ingrained. And it's not to talk bad about you know our parents. It's not because I truly believe, like once you start to understand your own journey, you have empathy and it doesn't make everything acceptable, but you can make sense of it. It's not to be angry, it's to forgive your parents because they did the best they could with what they knew, and then each generation. The goal would be that, like those patterns, maybe the more dysfunctional patterns, are broken through that awareness. A big part of what we do is psychoeducation. Absolutely, In the beginning it's huge. People just don't know what they don't know.

Speaker 3: 6:16

Yeah, and giving that insight into. Oh well, because this happened in your childhood. That might be why you feel the need to either avoid it at extreme cost or jump all the way in, now that you're a parent Right.

Speaker 2: 6:28

Yeah, overcorrecting maybe a few. I mean, there's just so many different variables. But so, in order to truly, I guess, like however, there's all kinds of different ways of saying it but like, heal your inner child, right, yeah, is to understand it. Yeah, because we can love our children. This is the part that is heartbreaking. We can love our children so deeply, I mean to the point of, like, self-sacrifice, oh yeah. To the point of self-neglect, yeah, right. And we don't love our own inner child with that same grace.

Speaker 1: 7:00

That is so true. So if someone's going well, how would I know? I'm codependent.

Speaker 2: 7:04

So it takes the shape in a lot of different forms, but I and you can help with yours, sure Cause I think it. I try to sum it up as best I can Right, it's basically when you put everyone else and that you carry other people's burdens that are not yours to carry, but you put yourself before, I mean you put other people before yourself, right, carry, but you put yourself before, I mean you put other people before yourself, right, always, always, like you, you will do things to the degree of not only is it self-neglect, but this is we can talk about this a lot today because we got to look at the cost of that but enable people to continue behaviors or patterns that are actually destructive sometimes, whether it be, you know, we hear codependency a lot with addiction. That's not all it's about. Yeah, you know having a codependent partner and the addict and that. I think that's maybe the clearer way people see it, but they think they're helping and then they're just continuing to.

Speaker 3: 7:59

That learned, helplessness, that enabling problem, but this is emotions.

Speaker 2: 8:05

This could be basically lack of stepping up in their life. Yeah, being accountable Every individual has to be accountable for their actions. So you can support people with boundaries. But to some degree you might have to think but am I actually doing more harm than good by continuing to reward this behavior? Do they have a reason to change Right? Because if it's working, why change it? Yeah, yeah, you know, and they don't even always know either, and I think so. For the codependent Right and again, I've had my own journey with that yeah, it's like, but you choose that. You don't maybe realize why you're doing it Right, but they're not always like in the context of relationships, right, like there's a lot of things where it's like, you know, women get mad. Like my husband doesn't step up and help around the house, he doesn't do this, he doesn't do that. But then I'm like okay, well, let's go back, though. Have you always done that? Yep, does he even?

Speaker 2: 9:07

recognize it's a problem, because if we're actively doing it, then it may not. And I'm just giving people the benefit of a doubt, right, like they may not even realize it's a problem, right?

Speaker 3: 9:17

Well, because it's kind of been the same old, same old. It's been that expectation. But then, especially when you throw kids into the mix and mom more often than not is your default parent, but then, especially when you throw kids into the mix and mom more often than not is your default parent, but then they're also the default household manager. Well then husband over there is probably not going to be as overstimulated, as touched out, as burnt out. So no wonder they get to be the fun, flexible parent. They're not carrying the mental load of all of this. So it's one of those. We don't necessarily see that progression of codependency until mom burns out and is just angry at the world.

Speaker 1: 9:51

You found her in the kitchen one day screaming because someone didn't pick something up for the same time.

Speaker 2: 9:55

Right Resentment.

Speaker 1: 9:57

you know all of this internalized like and it's like that one little thing that, yeah, because it's happened. Like one little thing Right that, yeah, because it's happened. Like in my own life, like you know, when I think I saw my mom doing it all constantly, never asking for help, just doing it Right. And so then, when I became a wife, I stepped into that and no one, you know Right. And then it was easier because I didn't have two little humans needing me yes, right, but no one prepared me for when the two little need me and I have started something Right. That's what's in our routine that I didn't even know was I starting it Right, right, like I didn't know it was balanced for the children. I mean, it was just like this is what you do.

Speaker 2: 10:41

Right, it's definitely an over sense of responsibility for other people. Yeah, that's. I mean, at the end of the day, that over sense of responsibility is the lie the codependent tells themselves to. So we've talked about a little about like how it shapes different and it does. You can have like the codependent who I think a lot of people think of it as like maybe it's a misunderstood to be like needy or can't be alone or whatever.

Speaker 2: 11:07

And sometimes that does happen to the point where, like people's anxious, I would say it's the anxious codependent. Where it's like, I will continue to be like, do whatever it takes to not be abandoned or not be rejected or whatever. But the control, the control is, shows different, it shows up different. It's actually can look very opposite. It can be the woman who has it together Super independent, super independent. Looks like it's everything's fine, right, all the time, you know, and though that struggle is sort of fear of vulnerability.

Speaker 4: 11:43

Yeah.

Speaker 2: 11:43

You know, not recognizing that your feelings and needs do matter. You know.

Speaker 3: 11:50

Well, maybe a fear of failure and all of that, that if I don't maintain all these things or if I don't juggle all of these things, I'm going to be viewed as a failure or imperfect or things like that.

Speaker 1: 11:59

Your worth is tied to what you do or accomplish.

Speaker 2: 12:02

Yes, or what you can do for others. Needing to be needed is another thing. Love to be needed Yep, yep. When we correlate like love or self-worth or you know. However, again that takes shape into if I don't do this for people, then they won't need me, and then they maybe won't be there.

Speaker 1: 12:20

Because you think, oh okay, it's, it's a weird, it's a weird thought, but it's like you have value to that person's life instead of you just being you adding value, like the things I do adds value to your life. So like you don't want to get rid of me because I do these tasks for you, or like I take care of that for you.

Speaker 2: 12:36

Right, and that's the part I think is so interesting, because I don't think that that is subconscious until you realize it, right? Yes, because you don't realize that actually people love you, the healthy people, the healthy people love you for you, not what you can do for them, and they don't always, you know, you might always find yourself being the friend everybody calls to you.

Speaker 2: 12:59

Know, vent you know all these things, and then you're like you know, okay, that's been the role I've played, but the good friends that are not benefiting from your lack of boundaries.

Speaker 3: 13:09

And I want to say that.

Speaker 2: 13:11

Like yeah is they'll be there, right, they don't want to drain you. You say, hey look, you know I'm kind of at a max, like I can't. I love you, but I can't, like I need a minute, it's too much right now. Those healthy people will stand around, yeah, and the ones that don't, they're doing you a favor because they've been benefiting from you, yeah they've been the drainer. The drainer.

Speaker 2: 13:37

There's a book, I think it's called the Giver and the Taker, or something like that and there's other ones that are really good about it, but it just talks about how, like, if again you look at the cost, the cost of being that way is that being an excessive caretaker, rescuer, fixer, giver is more vulnerable to the ultimate takers. Right yeah.

Speaker 1: 13:56

You know, and do they attract each other? It's like a magnet. You know, so you may say, well, I always end up with this guy or I seem to attract these friends Right, and no one's maybe correlated what you're putting out there. Take it Right, yeah.

Speaker 2: 14:12

Let's joke about this with clients all the time. If they ever hear this, they're going to be like we've heard that before. But I mean seriously. But I'm like this is not fixer upper. Okay yeah, we are not fixed. But that is a pattern that happens with people who are rescuers and fixers. Right, they see a you know potential.

Speaker 1: 14:30

Yes, right, or a fantasy? We've all dated that guy in our life 100%.

Speaker 2: 14:35

Yeah, like they see. But you know there's another layer to that. You hear you might hear about like codependent denial and people are like what is that? But it's a weird way to say it, but it's denial of what is actually in front of you versus what you want it to be.

Speaker 1: 14:50

Yeah, yeah, you know that's a big one Rosy-colored glasses, staring at something that's.

Speaker 3: 14:56

Yeah, Seeing the potential quote unquote. That's there when there may not be potential. Yeah, Also, it's not your responsibility to fix that other person. That's their responsibility.

Speaker 2: 15:05

A hundred percent and in hindsight, so many times you know, we see that show up in marriages and relationships, but it's in friendships and things too, but really in relationships because it's the most vulnerable situation. But to me it's like you don't realize that your heart is good, your intent it's, and I will say this is not the thing about codependency, is it's never. I don't think from like bad intent, I agree, no, yeah, but it's like you're, you're assuming, because we all project in different ways that the person let's say you're with that is 100% shown through actions and facts that their intentions are not the same Right, and they're not showing up, but you're giving them more credit than they deserve because of the fantasy.

Speaker 4: 15:54

Yeah.

Speaker 2: 15:54

That's kind of how codependent denial plays out. It's like I want this so badly to be what I thought it was going to be, that I'm going to keep pushing. Control shows up that way, I'm going to keep pushing, I'm going to keep pushing. Control shows up that way, I'm going to keep pushing, I'm going to keep pushing. And then one day mostly you get kids involved, you're drained and it implodes and all of a sudden I think it's a weird thing Like grief almost sets in because you're bargaining for a while.

Speaker 3: 16:18

Yeah, what's the loss of that hope?

Speaker 2: 16:21

Yeah, it's the loss of hope.

Speaker 3: 16:23

Would you say you see more people being codependent in friendships and relationships? If their parents were struggling and they felt as a child number one, they were parentified, so they were the parent to younger siblings or they tried to fix their parent in so many ways.

Speaker 2: 16:42

That's one way it definitely shapes.

Speaker 2: 16:43

Because, if you could draw a diagram, it's almost like, once you see it you notice Right, like if you have, I'm going to say it's normally associated. You know, old school thought was just like the alcoholic parent, right. But let's look at, you got to look at, okay, maybe the alcoholic parent, or the addict parent, the mentally ill, or maybe there was a even a parent that struggled more with, like everybody had to tiptoe around that one Right, being on eggshells around them. Or the critical, controlling parent, right, the dominant parent, where everybody kind of feared their reaction.

Speaker 2: 17:20

But how that works is if you have and I'm just example to two siblings, one of the siblings it's like like literally almost predictable is going to be the child that was so observant of the environment, constantly evaluating, constantly trying to figure out how do I not make this worse, you know so they're like pleasing. They're like, okay, I know this person gets angry when they're like this, or when they come home and their mood is like this, then I have to shape shift to try to help my dad, because we talk about it in the context of dads, but moms could be that way too. You know absolutely unhealthy things like that. So then they start, they don't eat. They're so anxious, yeah. And that good little girl or boy becomes the adult that does the same thing around every environment. They are the people pleasers. They're the ones that want to make sure everybody else is okay at the cost of themselves, because it's familiar to them, yeah.

Speaker 3: 18:22

It's their safe zone.

Speaker 2: 18:23

Yeah, but when you're in that environment, you don't get to be a kid and you don't get to learn about yourself, right? So you grow up and you still focus outside of yourself a lot and you still just put a lot of other people's burdens on you. Yeah, but there we can't do that Like we. Really. There's so many situations that we can't fix. You know, we can support people, we can love people, we can hope the best for them, but we literally cannot, until a person says you know what, I want to change, I want to be different. There's nothing we can do about it, right, you know?

Speaker 1: 19:00

That's so hard because I think so many started so young with these experiences.

Speaker 3: 19:04

Yes, oh for sure.

Speaker 1: 19:06

And I think this generation of moms we say all the time has the hardest work because we're now wanting to do better and do the work.

Speaker 1: 19:13

And that is difficult, absolutely. I mean, it's hard to hear something about yourself and go ooh, ooh, okay, that hits. And then I think it's a multiple layer, so, like when I'm realizing I'm having some of these traits and issues, it's fear, right Of like, have I gone too far in it? When I start to, I say, bucket a little bit, change, how is that going to play out? Right, it's a process With my relationships, with my children, with my work, mm-hmm, like, because people see me in this one lane Right Now I'm changing lanes, yeah, mm-hmm one lane.

Speaker 2: 19:49

Right now I'm changing lanes, yeah, yeah, so it's, it's not fun, no, no, it's scary. And I will say that it is hard. I mean, yeah, it gets worse before it gets better. And learning. So what's the answer? Right, yeah, learning boundaries and people hear that word all the time and I think it's can be said different ways and finally you have maybe a light bulb moment, right?

Speaker 2: 20:06

I know I did, yeah, but it had to be said in the most it was the weirdest moment. I can remember to this day of how it clicked with me. But and not to jump around but to speak to those environments if you had two kids, the other one is typically what they would consider like the more rebellious or the broken child, you know. So it becomes a very like clear dynamic and if you think about again, all this is subconscious, it's not ill intent, but if you have a broken child and the pleaser child, the pleaser child's gonna be like I'm gonna get through this, I'm out the resilient right but if you, let's say, have a codependent parent or a critical, controlling parent who maybe needs to be needed, I'm not saying they do this intentionally.

Speaker 2: 20:46

But if you have a codependent parent or a critical, controlling parent who maybe needs to be needed, I'm not saying they do this intentionally, but if you have a child that is more needy and that is always needing to be like the victim child, guess what they're going to need you. They're literally going to always be a project for you. Right? Yeah, so that's something will always be there. This is how it like cycles. Right, because I don't always think people do this on purpose. No, but this is the cost. Like if you could fast forward so many years and think, okay, if I am a helicopter parent, you know, or if I am the drill sergeant parent, because those are the two extremes, there's cost in both. Yeah, you know, the balance is more important and I think we put way too much pressure on ourselves. Oh, absolutely, you know. I mean.

Speaker 3: 21:31

Well, I think social media amplifies that Absolutely Of having to go and do all the things and make all the cute Valentines or birthday things, like we have to be this top tier parent.

Speaker 2: 21:42

Yeah.

Speaker 3: 21:43

And it's really okay for you to just meet yourself where you're at.

Speaker 2: 21:46

Absolutely. I definitely think that's made it a lot more pressure.

Speaker 3: 21:50

Yes, you know well, and it's self inflicted too, because chances are you're not looking at my social media thinking. Man Whitney made some awesome goodie baskets for her daughter's class. That's probably not on your radar, but I'm over there thinking look at what I did. I did so good, like I finally hit that mark and now I'm just as good as mary sue, right? Well, mary sue, don't care about me and your kids probably like, okay, like yeah right, they don't know yet important to them, right?

Speaker 2: 22:20

no, it's a lot, right? That's the journey of self-reflection, right? You know we talk about this a lot in therapy is remain curious about why. Why did I just choose to agree to do that?

Speaker 1: 22:33

Right, or why did that upset me, or why am I feeling?

Speaker 3: 22:37

this way? What's the root?

Speaker 1: 22:38

Because I don't think we ever pause and ask I think we just move through it, oh yeah, and we're like, okay, I'm angry, or putting that in my resentment box, or I won't hold on to that one for the next fight, or you know, I'm going to do these things. So I think it's really interesting because I think if you talk mom, son, I think this is like a big thing that we see a lot and being a boy mom, I'm just like I don't want to be this.

Speaker 4: 23:02

Right.

Speaker 3: 23:03

But you see it, because then often this generation we're marrying, yeah, these men and in the south it's very prevalent, very much and then you're inheriting this codependent mom as your mother-in-law, and then they're shocked and when you're like, and then you have an issue right, that enmeshment really comes to life. Yeah right.

Speaker 1: 23:25

So if they're going okay, okay, yes, yes, yes me so. And so they're going, okay, okay, yes, yes, yes Me, so-and-so they're diagnosing their mother-in-law in here. Where do we go from here?

Speaker 2: 23:33

So I think it's got to happen with, honestly, individual work and that's the thing we see couples, but a lot of times in couples, it's very important to have individual work because, absolutely and this is just me, but I feel like there's a lot of different modalities out there and things but how can you truly be and know who you're married to and then express what you need if you don't even know why you're doing what you're doing? So, you know, I think it starts with that and a lot of real, honest conversation, right, but that takes two parties, yeah, to be willing to listen to, maybe why not only do I do the things I do, but have understanding for the way that you know your partner does that, right? Yeah, you know, because we trigger each other all the time Totally, oh yeah. And when you have two I'm going to say emotionally unhealthy people because I can raise my hand on that, we all are, I was oh, yeah, and they're drawn more than likely to maybe the opposite but another unhealthy person, right? So then you've got two emotionally unhealthy people that have healing to do, that, have to not to love each other enough to genuinely both be willing to confront those things, and that's doable. Yeah, you know, no person in this planet is perfect, right, like it. Just we're human. But we do have to understand. Like everybody's got little.

Speaker 2: 25:00

I say wounds, right, and if you have wounds, it's like, and if they're still open, the more wounds you have, the more trauma you've had growing up and you know it's so complex. But some people have had significant trauma. Well then, they're going to be triggered more often. Right, little things are gonna hurt it and then, all of a sudden, their reaction may not make sense to the their part. Yeah, right, you know. No, I get that. So the more you understand, the better you can say oh, wait, wait, I know why that just happened, right, and I'm, you know, when I react this way it's really because, um, blah, blah, blah a fear it's usually rooted in fear.

Speaker 2: 25:38

Oh yeah, you know, fear of our distrust. You know, because if they've grown up, let's say, in environments where things were pretty dysfunctional, and that's let's say they've been modeled a lot of chaos or conflict, or no ability to have conflict resolution, or and I mean honestly, generationally, like that's a big thing that I see with clients Like emotional neglect or just not having that emotional piece. But I mean, I'm not even blaming their parents for that or grandparents for that. It was not talked about.

Speaker 1: 26:10

I was going to say just like, if we go back to like the mental health stuff, it was not talked about and that was even told to me by a family member one time. Well, back in my day, sarah, we just dealt with it and talked about it.

Speaker 3: 26:20

Yes, Like it was not. And also you have to think how scary of a time is that. Oh, yeah, yeah. How many people were so close to just losing it all.

Speaker 2: 26:29

I don't know I can't imagine honestly.

Speaker 1: 26:32

And so it's, I think, and to you, the catalyst of it all, and most of our listeners are moms to be, or moms then you bring this life into it.

Speaker 2: 26:41

Yes, and then it because and here's the weirdest thing, I think I think our children are reflective of us. Yes, you know, especially if they have some of their personalities, yep, and then in some weird way, like you're being triggered at times by parenting and by your child's personality, because a lot of your own fears or maybe insecurities or inadequacies are like walking around.

Speaker 1: 27:04

No, it is. It's your little mirrors, like they just point it towards you oh yeah, and then your spouse or partner is pointing that towards you as well, cause it's. You're all trying to figure it out Nobody knows how to parent, I mean we can, we our best and every kid's different.

Speaker 2: 27:18

So that's fun.

Speaker 1: 27:20

Yeah.

Speaker 3: 27:20

My kids are very opposite in their personalities. It's very difficult, yeah.

Speaker 1: 27:24

So how does it look? Let's talk about helicopter mom and drill sergeant mom. Okay, for a little bit, because we've all seen them. We've maybe even met them for a minute up to parents.

Speaker 2: 27:39

Enmeshment's another good word Doing too much. Right yeah, right yeah, and that is detrimental, because what we? I know it's out of love, maybe out of fear, but it is deep seated in. I can control the outcome, right. I can take my child from everything I can like. What are you doing in the long run, though? Because eventually, this child is going to be an adult. In the long run, though, because eventually, this child is going to be an adult, and unless you want them living in your basement until they're like 50.

Speaker 2: 28:02

And some do Then you're actually enabling them to learn how to be resilient, because you're protecting them from pain, and the reality of it is there's no way to do that. So then their anxiety is at peak with helicopter parents and the adult children, right. And even, like you see it, you know it's about saying, okay, it is the most painful thing to see your child go through something hard, right, you can say I'm sorry you're going through this. Like this is this is hard, right, but you also have to instill in them that you can do hard things Right, yes, and what can we learn from what's happening? Right, and grow Right Versus. Let me try to fix it all, right.

Speaker 3: 28:49

Because then they never learn how to fix anything on their own.

Speaker 2: 28:52

At all.

Speaker 3: 28:53

And there's a difference Like, yes, you do need to supervise your small children, like if they go play outside, and yes, you can teach your children. There's a safe way to climb the rocks, or there's a safe way to do this once they get to where it's developmentally appropriate. But at some point just you can say, okay, I'm gonna watch you from the window inside playing on the swing set. You know the area to stay within as long as you're in a safe area and start to step back a touch. You're teaching, give them a little bit of that freedom. But also know, okay, I'm going to look out the window every few minutes, keep my eyes, make sure you're safe. But also, let's see if you can build that autonomy, let's see if you can problem solve with your sibling without needing me to referee.

Speaker 2: 29:31

Absolutely Like it's confidence building Right.

Speaker 1: 29:39

Well, because reality is the world's not gonna not come at you right? Just if you know. That's the thing. Like bad stuff, it's going to happen and we cannot control that as moms. But I'd, rather than fell in front of me, struggle in front of me, and we work on those right versus me, always just covering you and shielding you, and then you're gonna crash and burn, right, yes, and you know it changes.

Speaker 2: 29:56

This is another thing, too, like what's appropriate age yes. Stages of development Right. You know responsibilities. Yeah, accountability. Kids can start doing little things to help out, and then, you know, that builds confidence too, though, because you're teaching them that like okay like you know, I have to think about this thing I'm able to do this. Yeah, and you want their confidence. You know we see quite a few.

Speaker 2: 30:21

I feel like of teens, early 20s, yeah, early adulthood that you know are frozen. Yeah, honestly yeah, because they've never had to this sounds bad, not suffer, but they've never had to be uncomfortable yes, Right, yes, bad, not suffer, but they've never had to be uncomfortable.

Speaker 3: 30:41

Yes, right, yes. And then here they are, adults, let loose in college or just in life, and they're like wait, I have to do this on my own now. No one ever taught me how to do this on my own. Yeah, and it can be challenging, but again, that's as parents we have to say okay, I need to be able to teach you, equip you, come to me with your questions, I can help you brainstorm and strategize.

Speaker 3: 31:01

But also natural consequences, like did you overspend before the power bill came in, and now you're struggling, you don't know how you the teaching moment.

Speaker 1: 31:09

Yeah Right, I think a lot of moms aren't comfortable being uncomfortable.

Speaker 3: 31:14

Right, well, no, I mean.

Speaker 1: 31:15

No one loves to be uncomfortable, no one likes it, but like you've never been but it actually never said the other side of it or no one's ever said yeah, hey, I'm struggling in this right now. How do I get through this? How do I process being uncomfortable? Like there's all this, like we're supposed to be happy, it's supposed to be good. It's like a baby, right. It's like a baby's learned to walk. We let them try to walk, yeah, we let them try to walk and they're going to fall, yeah. And we say get back up, mm-hmm For sure, so you can run, get back up so you can climb Right. Get back up so you can. Yeah.

Speaker 3: 31:44

Yeah, it's that mentality, and you teach your kids too. Well, are you bleeding? Are you hurt? No, well, dust your hands. You just fell in the dirt. Yeah, we all fall in the dirt.

Speaker 2: 31:56

Yeah, I was reading something like last night actually about how misunderstood like gentle parenting is.

Speaker 3: 32:02

You know, that's misunderstood too, and I think most are like oh, if I it's too gray yeah. You're not coddling your child if you choose to gentle parent. It's more so that you're not screaming at them when they mess up, because you still hold them accountable?

Speaker 1: 32:17

Oh, absolutely that you're not screaming at them when they mess up because you still hold them accountable. Oh, absolutely, people don't. That's one of those things. I think people hear those terms and people go like right or left right, you're like, oh, you're not disciplining or you're pushover, when really we're just talking about boundaries here with gentle parenting.

Speaker 3: 32:31

Well, and then natural consequences.

Speaker 2: 32:34

And the other part of that is too like. It's important to have conversations with your child. Consequences and the other part of that is too like.

Speaker 2: 32:39

it's important to have conversations with your child and this is not the same as like dismissing their feelings Right, but let's say, you get into the ages where they're having problems with friends, right, please don't be the parent that's like you're always right. Yeah, because the damage I mean Whitney and I can attest to this as seeing adults Ooh, like, don't make them think that the world revolves around them and that they're never wrong, it's okay.

Speaker 3: 33:01

You're building a narcissist when you do that. You really are actually. I mean, I'm calling a spade a spade. You're building a narcissist when you tell your child that they are perfect and they do no wrong. They need to be held accountable, yeah.

Speaker 2: 33:13

But here's the thing I find that if you're doing that, then is it hard for you to admit that you're not perfect. Yes A hundred percent.

Speaker 1: 33:21

There's got to be a reason why yes yeah.

Speaker 2: 33:22

You know, because it's. Why are we not giving ourselves permission to be flawed, right? I don't understand that, because that is the biggest lie we'll ever tell. Absolutely. That's the second lie we tell ourselves yeah, yeah Is is that we can save the world and rescue everybody and that we actually have control over that and that we are not going to make mistakes.

Speaker 2: 33:45

Right, that's life. Yeah, that's how we learn. Yeah, resiliency comes from saying what can I learn from this? What is this trying to teach me? And, as a parent, it's saying okay, whatever the scenario is, is this something that they are going to have natural consequences, or what is a something that they are going to have natural consequences, or what is a reasonable consequence that's going to teach?

Speaker 1: 34:03

Not just punish, hurt, harm.

Speaker 3: 34:06

Right, let's figure something you know like when your kid colors on the wall and you've told him not to do that. We'll grab that magic eraser and teach them how to scrub a wall, right, because you're teaching them how to fix the problem that they created. So it's a natural consequence. But we're not being abusive, right?

Speaker 2: 34:21

like you know, consequence needs to match right your reaction needs to match, yeah yeah, what's actually happening right right like being super reactive. Hey, we've all had those moments oh, for sure I'm not here, but yeah, if it's over something like a spiel and you're like losing it, yeah, that's not really reasonable. Right then you need to do some reflection about what do you really stress out about?

Speaker 3: 34:43

you know exactly.

Speaker 1: 34:44

That was the straw that broke the camel's back there's more to it, yeah and that's all happened and I think it goes back to we've never paused, we've never looked inward. Yeah you've never, said.

Speaker 1: 34:54

I mean, some people even want to like talk about their childhood. I mean, they had good childhood, yeah. Or you've literally just like don't want to bring yourself back to those moments, right, or you feel guilty. I think people have a really hard time Because you're like I had a good parent, or like they feel bad talking about their parents and I're like you know they've done wrong, they're going to talk bad about me.

Speaker 2: 35:21

I want to say that you know, we hear we do a lot of like more attachment based exploration of that. And it is not to make you angry at your parent. You know, through the process of understanding there are going to, there's going to be moments where you have to work through, I guess, the impact of their whatever was going on, how it did affect you. Yeah, that's fair. Yeah, I think it's just saying being able to work through it and say, all right, it's not, it is what it is, but you don't want to harbor that resentment, right, because then that just hurts you ultimately. But you do have to work through that and give yourself permission to kind of feel through that process. And on the flip side cause you ask about drill sergeant.

Speaker 2: 36:05

So, drill sergeant parents are extremely like, punitive in their discipline and very intense, and it's very like reactive and controlling, but not in a controlling way of like do this and do that and like they may, their kids might make a mistake and the punishment is very unreasonable, you know. And so the kid is like an anxious mess but also like fears making a mistake. And then what does that drive?

Speaker 2: 36:36

It's perfectionism and then also, like it does develop kind of what we were talking about, like having a critical, controlling parent. It's going to shape them some way. They learn that their needs are only to please their parents. Yeah, See.

Speaker 3: 36:50

What's so funny, though, is I know like my type A and my perfectionism type stuff didn't stem in my parents. It stemmed from a very controlling boss one time.

Speaker 4: 36:57

Yeah.

Speaker 3: 36:58

But if you would just make a typo in a note or something like that, lose their mind, and so it's like I have to walk on eggshells, Like I have to make sure I get everything exactly right.

Speaker 4: 37:08

Yeah.

Speaker 3: 37:09

Well, I'm sorry, in foster care that's not gonna happen, right, right, you know. And then you know, working in substance abuse treatment like not everything's gonna be perfect, but it's very explosive when something was not.

Speaker 2: 37:20

Oh yeah perfect all types of relationships. Oh yeah, I mean absolutely we don't even consciously.

Speaker 2: 37:26

Most of us remember before what age four, four, five yeah, my memory's bad, so I don't even know. But I think, like that's what's so interesting to me, because those years are actually very, very like Formative, so we don't actually even have conscious memories of that, of what happened, like experience. And then you move into, like you know your bubble's small when you're at your house, I mean, you know what you're seeing mostly is your primary caregivers and whoever like close family. And then you get into middle school and then you get into high school and you know kids, honestly, like their brains aren't fully developed.

Speaker 2: 38:00

No 25 or 26. Yeah, so, like then, their friends become the main priority and, honestly, like to this day, it's like you're only, as you know, good as the people you hang around, right, well, for kids, their priority for those years are wanting to be accepted and, absolutely, their peers have a lot of influence. Yes, so it's not just our parents, right, multiple things, it's a lot of things, and that's why it's cool to kind of think about that, right? Yeah, like, what did we learn from?

Speaker 3: 38:29

you know, our best friend, or?

Speaker 2: 38:30

yeah, how did that impact me? Or?

Speaker 3: 38:32

all right, good stuff too. Oh sure beauty of all this like parenting.

Speaker 2: 38:36

Yeah, like we talk about the way the negative things shape us, because obviously they have the most like totally related to it, right, but you can also think, like modeling, that was good. Yeah, absolutely yeah, the things that we learn, that we really appreciate, oh, yeah, it's good, you know, don't like? I know we always talk about the negative, but even with, like, our parents are human.

Speaker 1: 38:59

Yes.

Speaker 2: 38:59

So they, you know, obviously we took some pretty good traits away from them and of course they're human, so they're not. They've had their own struggles, right.

Speaker 1: 39:10

Now what is someone's like? Ok, I'm ready to work on this. Clearly they need to find a therapist Right. And you say it's going to get worse before it gets better. It does what does coming out of it kind of look like differently. So it's like we gave some good examples. What it does Someone coming out of it yeah.

Speaker 2: 39:25

So let's talk about, like, how the work plays.

Speaker 4: 39:29

Yes.

Speaker 2: 39:29

Because one of the hardest things when you've been so locked into your way is to, like you said, have to look in the mirror. And when you said that, I wanted to point that out, Because when people have to look in the mirror and kids make us do that sometimes, oh yeah, Especially when they act like it and you're like oh my God, You're like, that's me.

Speaker 3: 39:45

Why did you get that trait from me? That's me.

Speaker 1: 39:47

Like of all the things to I can point out Bill's traits real quick. I'm like that's you Right, you know but it's so hard.

Speaker 2: 39:54

And why is it so hard? Because it's hard to recognize things that maybe we are insecure about and that is rooted in shame yeah, unnecessary shame. But because we've had this idea and we have to accept reality and that's a whole thing, yeah, so when we're coming out of it, it's one. I mean, this is just my approach. People are different. Psychoeducation about it. Period first, like this is what it is, this is what it looks like, this is all the different ways it can impact your life. Let's explore how that. You know I love self-help books and stuff. I will say you know, I get on this tangent. It's like it's very generalized and that's the beauty of self-help. But also you need to go process it with a therapist so that you can actually see some. It's not like being objective.

Speaker 4: 40:41

Yeah.

Speaker 2: 40:42

Because it's really hard, Like we can read all the things but until we can have someone like be objective and say, OK, let's think about how this specifically applies to you, it's harder to like Totally, Absolutely so education and then processing through all of that and then learning baby steps right as to I mean boundaries, I would honestly say like that would probably, and that you know.

Speaker 2: 41:06

Boundaries is so such a word. That is like boundaries, boundaries, boundaries. But basically, I think the most misunderstood thing about boundaries is boundaries are not rules for other people, and that's where we get confused, like we might think, well, we're going to set a boundary and we're going to tell them not to do that. Don't work that way. That's not a boundary. A boundary is what are you willing to accept and where's your line Right? What other people do with that boundary is actually on them and accountability, yeah, but it's like you know with if you have to be so grounded in yourself that you're saying you know what, I'm gonna have to be okay sometimes with being the bad guy. I'm gonna have to be okay with not being liked. I'm gonna have to be okay with disappointing someone yeah, so you type a's enneagram ones.

Speaker 3: 41:55

It's gonna be a challenge, it's I mean it's, it's singing yeah, totally yeah

Speaker 2: 42:01

it's you've got to get heal. The part of you that has always sought external validation, you know you may not even like I.

Speaker 1: 42:09

I didn't realize that you know um and mother, motherhood, who brings it? It brings it.

Speaker 2: 42:15

It does. And it does bring it. And it's also when you start to see the cost, yes. Then not only like they're not getting the best version of you, you're putting way too much pressure on yourself, like we just need to live our lives and genuinely do the best we can. Right, but like it's a lot of pressure. I think codependents also tend to put a lot of extra pressure, absolutely as a parent and always feeling like you're failing. Yeah, like that's not fun.

Speaker 1: 42:43

I hear so many moms be like no matter what, I just feel like I'm not good enough.

Speaker 3: 42:46

It's never enough.

Speaker 1: 42:47

It's never enough, and yeah.

Speaker 3: 42:49

And some of that is you know, sometimes, as soon as you think you have something off your plate, like you've completed a task or done whatever life's like, okay, here you go, here's five more, and you're like am I ever going to get caught up? No, the answer is no, and that reminded me.

Speaker 2: 43:02

I think part of the journey of healing is learning to communicate the changes to the people.

Speaker 2: 43:09

Like Mary so they're just not like what is happening, right, because it is going to be jarring. Yeah, no, yeah, to kind of be like you know what. It's going to be a little jarring because they're people are used to you being yeah, right, but then also just being able to say, you know what, like, I need everybody to have a better version of me, but not everybody, the people that matter, because the people that truly, like I said, are not benefiting from your lack of boundaries will respect that and you'll start to get your needs met more. And you've got to learn to ask for help and you've got to learn to say hey, you know, look, I know I've been doing this a long time, but you know I'm going to need you to help me a little bit more on this area so that I'm not resentful, you know, opening up about it and just saying I need some help with this.

Speaker 1: 43:56

And this is not a one or two therapy session. It won't be different.

Speaker 2: 43:59

It's not, it's an, you know, it's an unlearning. It takes a while, a way of thinking Right.

Speaker 1: 44:05

But you're rewiring your brain, for sure I think the hardest step is going ooh, that resonates, and then calling and getting help. Yeah, but seeing, I think because this generation of moms it's a blessing, it's a curse. We see what's behind us, right, we see what's ahead of us with our children and we're kind of that turning point.

Speaker 3: 44:23

Right, I think so.

Speaker 2: 44:24

Agreed. That's hard, it's hard.

Speaker 3: 44:26

We are the catalyst generation of moms, and that's a lot of responsibility.

Speaker 2: 44:31

Yeah, you know something that this just popped in my head you were talking about earlier, about marrying like the mother-in-law that may have been that way. Yes, I don't know that this word's come up, but it's like over-involvement. So a lot of times what you see in like, let's say, adults, and it's not just men.

Speaker 2: 44:46

It could be like moms and daughters that are adults and then you know whatever. But I think you can always tell that there's that like over involvement in their life, like no boundaries, like showing up at places, never calling yeah, and again it comes from a place of love. Yeah, it is like purely like too much, right, you know?

Speaker 3: 45:07

Do you think sometimes they view their adult child as a younger child and like they still have to be that super involved mom?

Speaker 1: 45:15

they want to be needed.

Speaker 1: 45:16

I was gonna say I think these people just like they I feel like some of them never had identity or work exactly, and that is like, especially that's been there. I think the past generation of moms, right, or maybe two like the older you're seeing now they don't know what to do. I always say that I do not want to be a shell of a person. My kids grow up and leave and be successful adults. That's the whole goal, right? Yes, and I see these moms, shells of people like don't know even how to be themselves because their identity was full, tied to and so that scares me.

Speaker 1: 45:45

I'm like I want to cause I can know my personality type. I could fall into it. I'm not shaming them.

Speaker 2: 45:59

I to it. I'm not shaming them, I'm saying it's like it could easily, it could easily happen, you know.

Speaker 2: 46:02

But I wish that and I've told clients this before when they're adult, and then their mothers are overly involved and it's too much, it's like. I just wish that the mother would know that, like they do love you and you don't have to keep earning this connection with your child. Yes, they love you. Yeah, Kids. It's one of the I think to me one of the most like precious but heartbreaking things is how kids, when they're little, they love freely.

Speaker 1: 46:26

They just love their parents, even the ones that like are awful to them.

Speaker 4: 46:30

That's one of the saddest parts.

Speaker 2: 46:32

Yeah, it does change, you know, when they start to realize, okay, whoa, what's happening, right, and then I'm talking more of abusive situations. Yeah, yeah, right, but it is the most natural thing to want a connection with your parent. Yeah, yeah, and like.

Speaker 1: 46:48

So they're not gonna just like, just because it right and that's the thing it looks different, and that's the thing it looks different.

Speaker 2: 46:54

It shifts. You don't have to keep earning their love or feeling like they need you in some way. No, they're going to love you. They're going to be there, yeah.

Speaker 3: 47:02

Because then you have that over-involvement or an over-compensation of trying to buy love and all those things, we see that.

Speaker 4: 47:09

Yeah, yeah. All kinds of different ways.

Speaker 1: 47:11

So I think that's a good point to ask you a question. We ask all our guests and this is mom Hannah speaking Okay, what is something you wish you could tell yourself? Now? No one, you know you've you're raising and you've raised before babies. What would you tell yourself Like?

Speaker 3: 47:28

as what, what you know now, what would mom Hannah tell pre mom Hannah?

Speaker 2: 47:33

Oh Lord, You're going to be all right. Yeah, Like you're going to be all right. I mean, it's okay to be the hot mess mom. That's what I tell myself. Like, yeah, yeah, and it's authentic. Oh yeah, you know, I'm not going to again having a child. That's six now versus when I was completely fresh. Like, yeah, the pressure then was ridiculous and I feel a little bit my sons. I'm like I'm sorry if I was like I just had to follow every. I tried to follow everything and you know what. It's not worth it. No, it's not worth the pressure on them, it's not worth the pressure on me. Every child's different and I think it's like you're going to be okay and the child's going to be okay because they're loved. Like, if you look at the foundation, it's love, safety and security. You know encouragement to be themselves, Not what you want them to be, Not what the world wants them to be. This is what shapes like secure attachment.

Speaker 2: 48:28

You know, just knowing that they have room to have emotions, but boundaries with love, you're all right. After that it doesn't have emotions, but boundaries with love, you're all right. Right After that it doesn't have to be like even two parents that are together, you don't feel guilty about that. It's about offering them room, room to fail, but room to succeed, praise, showing up for them, you know, and it's okay. I think we may overcomplicate it.

Speaker 1: 48:55

Oh, absolutely, you know. No, I love that, hannah. We will have you back because we have so much of this to dive into. When it comes to, there's more to us as moms and reasons why we do things, and I think this is the tip of the iceberg. This is the tip of the iceberg and if I've, it's been really encouraging to our listeners's been to me. But just to know, get curious about yourself, right? Yeah?

Speaker 4: 49:17

I appreciate you having me, it's wonderful okay guys, we will see you next week maternal mental health is as important as physical health. The preview alliance podcast was created for and by moms dealing with postpartum depression and all its variables, like anxiety, anger, anger and even apathy. Hosted by CEO founder Sarah Parkhurst and licensed clinical social worker Whitney Gay, Each episode focuses on specific issues relevant to pregnancy and postpartum. Join us and hear how other moms have overcome mental health challenges, as well as access tips and suggestions on dealing with your own challenges as moms. You can also browse our podcast library and listen to previous episodes at any time. Please know you're not alone on this journey. We're here to help.