Interview with Courtney Montgomery: When Anxiety Meets Motherhood

Speaker 1: 0:10

Hi guys, welcome back to the Preview Alliance podcast. This is Sarah and Whitney, and we are so excited we have one of our let's see advocate. Mental health author, mom her book Lily's Special Toolbox, courtney Montgomery, is with us. Welcome, courtney, thank you so much for having me.

Speaker 2: 0:31

I'm so excited to meet you guys. We are so happy to have you.

Speaker 1: 0:34

For our listeners that maybe are new, can you give them just like a brief intro about you and then we'll dive right into your wonderful book?

Speaker 2: 0:43

Yeah, absolutely so. I've lifelong anxiety suffer, and then, once becoming a mother, it intensified more than I ever imagined. I started seeing some symptoms in my little six year old and so, after COVID, with the, you know the more demand for therapists and not as many available as we needed. I got frustrated one day and decided to write a book that I wish I would have had when I was little, because my daughter loved it, and so got it published and then started an Instagram where I just started sharing my struggles and it's been the most rewarding experience so far of my entire life. So, just a mom of two, I also have a little boy, a full-time employee as well, so juggling a lot, but, yeah, just very happy to be here.

Speaker 1: 1:35

We love that.

Speaker 3: 1:36

That's just. You're able to use that hardship and then educate and advocate for so many, Because we know we're not alone.

Speaker 2: 1:46

Well, I felt alone until I did this. I felt like no one ever understood and, as someone who struggled my whole life with anxiety, I did not realize my anxiety once I became a mother. I mean, I don't know if you wanted me to already start going to it, or this is a conversation yeah, awesome, yeah. So when I had my daughter, when I was pregnant, I of course had the worries you know, am I going to lose the baby? You know, the constant feeling is she kicking like the typical, not typical. But you know, worries that weren't so extreme, yeah, that weren't interfering with daily life life right.

Speaker 3: 2:24

So some of those that you would expect moms to have, especially first-time moms, when it's a territory like is this little twin normal? Is this nausea a normal amount?

Speaker 2: 2:35

yes, of those things yes, like is it well. And I had a severe vomiting the whole pregnancy, but so I had more. So I felt good one day and panic, Like you know I yeah, like I need to be throwing up what is happening Like I'm pregnant.

Speaker 3: 2:52

If I'm not, I eat a salad. Why can I eat a salad? Oh, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 2: 2:57

I just stomached a donut. Why is that happening? But postpartum anxiety is where I feel like I wasn't informed enough. I remember before leaving the hospital they said you need to watch these videos and it was all about SIDS and safe sleep. So I leave there in a panic attack thinking my daughter is going to literally like I'm just waiting for her to die.

Speaker 2: 3:24

So I actually slept in a chair, attack, thinking my daughter's gonna literally like I'm just waiting for her to die. So I actually slept in a chair holding her sitting up like a loveseat chair, which is not safe. But I felt like if I wasn't holding her something would happen, right. So I sat holding her up for the first four months of her life, just, and my mom got to the point where she was like you know, lily is four months now. She's kicking. If she leans back, she can flip off that chair. So I moved to the bed and had my arm like this, but like I always had to be touching her because I felt like if I didn't, something would happen and I never spoke up. I mean, I was on Zoloft for my pregnancy, it was. I went back and forth but the doctor stressed you know, a healthy mom needs to produce a healthy baby. So you know we don't want to have you go off and have something happen where you're you know not well.

Speaker 2: 4:18

So I was even on Zoloft, but I did not speak up more about like maybe this isn't normal and I should probably be in therapy.

Speaker 3: 4:25

Was there a fear that kept you from speaking up? Was it a fear of, like, a CPS getting involved, or a fear of am I going to be judged or hospitalized, or what would you say kind of held you back from speaking up?

Speaker 2: 4:39

I think I was so overwhelmed the thought of adding something else to my list, like therapy, or I felt like I didn't have any more capacity to speak up and get more help. And where am I going to fit therapy in? I'm a, you know, I'm a new mom. I'm sleeping two hours a night sitting in a chair, like. So I think I just wasn't thinking properly where. I just want other moms to know that you have to speak up, because even if you don't have the capacity, you're going to have it once you start, because you're going to be getting the help that you need.

Speaker 3: 5:14

Right. So I feel like the space to have that capacity.

Speaker 2: 5:19

Correct yes, and so I wish I would have known that, going in to my pregnancy with Lily and then giving birth, so it was really bad postpartum for sure.

Speaker 1: 5:31

We both struggled with. I mean, and if you think about it like that, so the company Preview Alliance and this is the podcast I've been vocal is videos Right and we send text messages and videos and emails to our moms in pregnancy and we talked just about what you said. Like this is not what we want you to experience, because I think what happened to me and I didn't sleep either because I was convinced my son would die. If I close my eyes, he is going to die. No one could tell me otherwise, and I think my family and who saw it and then I, of course you're not calling your best friend going. Like you know, I didn't sleep last night because I knew down he would.

Speaker 1: 6:12

You know, yeah, I didn't say that they thought it was first time. Mom nerves cheddar right, and I think they thought I should get over it right, so it got worse yeah, so we try to be like. This conversation we're having is the. So goal of previa is like right we want to normalize it yeah, you're experiencing this.

Speaker 1: 6:30

this is not what we want you to experience and this is anxiety. But it is such like a mind f when, like you're leaving the hospital and they're giving you the worst case scenario right, like I don't need help, thinking, worst case, right, we got this.

Speaker 2: 6:46

Exactly. I've already thought of everything that you're telling me it can be watching, and now we're putting gas on the fire. Yes, and I've actually never heard another mom say that until now that you thought if you closed your eyes, your baby would die. And just like hearing you say that is like so like I felt like something come off my chest, like just yeah, I feel like no one else has said that to me and so that's just life changing to hear about. Like another mom felt that too.

Speaker 1: 7:13

That was both of us and that is why we've always wanted conversations with moms to be like if you hear this, you know, you just know it's not just me, and I think that's like what half the struggle is is you know it's not just me. Yeah, and I think that's like what half the struggle is is you think it's me and I thought I was failing as a mom, or I don't, and I fear of judgment. Judgment was really strong because everybody else seemed like they got it together like somehow they were sleeping.

Speaker 1: 7:35

They looked good and here I was and it was, I don't know. Everything you say resonates with both of us, and that is. That is something that we thank you for being vulnerable and sharing that you don't share, you don't. You know you're never going to get processed, you're not going to help someone. So thank you for that.

Speaker 3: 7:53

That's of course yeah, this is to help normalizing moms speaking up, but also normalizing the person who gets that information to not judge to be helpful to you know. As far as therapy, I kind of view it as like a solution focused therapy of okay well, if SIDS is your rate of anxiety, can a SIDS monitor make it better or worse? What can we do to address this anxiety? And it's more of this team effort as opposed to. I'm scared to speak out because what horrible thing is going to happen now?

Speaker 2: 8:23

Yeah, yeah. So with Lily, I didn't get the outlet. You know, on her foot I had people telling me that because I was starting to get the anxiety of her passing when I got closer to 40 weeks and everyone was like, oh, there's false monitors all the time, or false alarms all the time, don't get it. And then, with my son, who was born March 2020, which was such a time to have a baby I was like I have to, I have to get it and I will say it completely changed the game for me. I know it's not for everyone, but I would wake up in the middle of the night and just like open my phone and I saw his heart rate and I saw his oxygen and and it just is the reason why I had two completely different experiences in terms of anxiety. So it's for me.

Speaker 1: 9:11

I know it's not, yeah, and I did my husband. I did become a little obsessed with it at some point and he was like let me keep it on my side of the bed or like, like he could I like on his phone, I think at that point right, yeah and like I.

Speaker 1: 9:26

So it was like oh, is that second step? If I had to ask him like, can you check that? Like kind of I was like no, it's okay. So that is something I think you're right. It can go either way, but if that is something that least lets you lay down and sleep, right, then you're not sleeping.

Speaker 3: 9:40

Your anxiety, anxiety and sleep oh gosh, they go hand in hand.

Speaker 1: 9:47

Yes, they do, and no one explains it to mom either. And then you say, well, you need to sleep. And she was like, yeah, okay, how is that happening?

Speaker 2: 9:57

Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 3: 9:59

I actually saw something the other day that talked about if you go 24 hours without sleep, which some moms do Some moms do, yeah, it is the equivalent of having the legal limit of alcohol in your system. As far as disorientation, executive function, executive dysfunction, I should say and just your cognitive awareness, your reflexes, all of that. And I'm over here, but yet we expect moms to do this on a day to day.

Speaker 3: 10:27

To do that on the daily and manage all of these things and go back to work at six weeks postpartum. Yeah, yeah, like what.

Speaker 2: 10:36

My therapist actually told me that they use sleep deprivation as a military torture tactic. But we're supposed to be being tortured and be happy and a Pinterest mom and grateful, yeah and soak'm grateful, yeah, yeah and soak in every moment, right.

Speaker 1: 10:56

It is, and I think this is. It brings us back to the next really good point I want to you know is everybody needs to get Lily's special toolbox?

Speaker 2: 11:04

Yeah, Thank you.

Speaker 1: 11:06

We each write it to our kids.

Speaker 2: 11:08

I love it, thank you.

Speaker 1: 11:10

But I think what's what credit to our kids? But I think what's what no one taught us? I think if you go back like no one taught us, probably didn't teach you is anxiety does present physically. So I love how in this book you're talking to Lily about physical ways and we try to say that specifically with anxiety and depression and pregnancy and postpartum Moms will say, well, I don't think I have it, but then their physical presentation and symptoms were going.

Speaker 3: 11:36

I mean we're talking chronic headaches, you know GI issues, whether it's like an acid reflux kind of thing.

Speaker 1: 11:42

Yes.

Speaker 3: 11:43

Upset stomach, constant nausea going on, inability to fall asleep or you're waking up all the time.

Speaker 2: 11:50

Tension in the neck and shoulders yes and it goes to my jaw too, like here and yeah, it's, yeah, it's really bad that right to us, especially when we were children, right?

Speaker 1: 12:02

so the fact that you're teaching lily and so many other kids through this and saying what is anxiety? Right first, let's say like what is this? Right First, let's say like what is this? Why are we feeling this way? How does our body feel, how does our mind percent? I just really want to say thank you for that, because we're trying to do the work with the boss. Right, you need to go to the kids in that conversation and they're like, well, how do I even talk to my kid about this? Right? And they get weirded out or like no one talked to them, right? So you know, how did it present physically for you? And was it like, oh no, when you saw that in Lily?

Speaker 2: 12:36

Well, our symptoms were a little different. I think mine are more intense, but then again I do talk to her, still at a kid level, and like I'm not a mental health professional you know I'm not a licensed therapist so I just did from a mom perspective that has. If you had experience with anxiety, I'd have a PhD times 10. Like I feel like I've gone through everything with anxiety. I kind of talked to her on a kid level, like I say, is it butterfly tummy or you know? Do you need to take some deep breaths? Do you feel like you're? You know it's hard to take a deep breath. Why don't we sit and hold hands and take some deep breaths?

Speaker 2: 13:12

And it's really trial and error when talking to kids, but I did learn that treating your physical symptoms sometimes can then get you to a point where you can address what's making you anxious, you know, calming you down. And so I remember when I was a kid I went to therapy, but it was in the 90s and I mean I'm sure the therapist was great and everything, but I don't think it was, as I think they saw anxiety as an adult issue and it's not. It starts in childhood for many like me, and so my mom saw it, thankfully, and sent me. But all I learned was to melt like a snowman. When I was anxious, like, slowly go down in my chair and melt to the ground. And what eight year old is going to do that in the middle of class?

Speaker 3: 14:00

Like, oh I hold on, guys, I need to see my snowman and melt right now You're thinking most teachers are going to be like why are you Right and I get on to you, which makes you embarrassed, which makes your anxiety worse. Yeah, yes, so we're not a thing. But I think, man, if a kid could just have a poppet and just kind of fidget on it because it's quiet yes we've come a long way. We've come a very long way.

Speaker 2: 14:28

Yes, so I feel like I had things to look for in Lily, and I also just want to say something really quick about any mom who has anxiety and your child is showing symptoms. Yes, you're going to be told it's genetic. It's not your fault, you're going through it. They'll get through it. You're you know you're a phenomenal mom and they will grow up to have a successful life and if they choose to have kids, they're going to be a great mom, just like you. So I just wanted to say that to any moms who have kids with anxiety.

Speaker 2: 14:54

I went through a little bit of guilt, but I I had a great mom and I had a great childhood, and they will too. It's just something they'll have to overcome, just like we are, and learn coping mechanisms and the fact that they're starting when they're young as opposed to when they're adults. I can't imagine if I got this when I was a kid, if I learned how to start my toolbox then, and I just wanted that for all the little I always say the little Courtney's out there, but, like you know, all the little, even Lily's out there that could learn this now, and that's just really why I started it now and got it published.

Speaker 1: 15:33

So Love that, so we know it's in Lily's toolbox.

Speaker 2: 15:36

Yes, what's in yours. So I actually I put multiple toolboxes in the toolbox. You know there's one in the middle and I added one at the end, right before it got published. The publisher was not happy, but I wanted to add another because they rotate so much, you know, and I know I messaged you ahead of time just so you were okay with it.

Speaker 2: 15:57

But I'm very pro medication. My medication gets me to where I can use my toolbox. So I do have my antidepressant and also for panic attacks I do have my emergency medication, but I've been much better about using the tools in my toolbox that I have. So, for starters, like I said, trial and error you got to. Just don't rule anything out because you think it's not going to work. I started meditating in December and it has helped me so much, even this one real quick one that they did, where you just go the ah and you feel it in your chest. It calms me and I learned that from the app. So like, get a meditation app that works for you. Cold showers yes, they stink, but when you get out I really do feel like it regulated me where before I was like, oh, cold shower is not going to work, my anxiety is too severe and it really. It really does so much. Of course, this is something that I do almost every day. That has helped me keep my cool with my kids.

Speaker 2: 17:04

If I'm feeling like they're maybe not in the best mood and I have a ton to do in the best mood and I have a ton to do, I stop and I assess what is going on.

Speaker 2: 17:16

What is making me feel anxious and sometimes we don't realize it's the dishes are in the sink, but your kid needs something. So I stop and I say, like the deep breath, the dishes are in the sink, let's get them something, and then everything else can wait. And and then so I do the dishes in the sink and it just kind of takes that angry feeling from anxiety and, you know, kind of pushes it away. And then just the typical, you know, exercise routine, move your body. I know some days also you're so busy as a mom but even 10 minutes to just YouTube free videos, you know, just jump on there, do a quick 10 minute one. And then I also have white noise. If I'm anxious falling asleep, find a sound that works for you. And those are things that have not changed out of my toolbox, so those are my favorite ones out of my toolbox, so those are my favorite ones, at least in therapy.

Speaker 1: 18:08

I cold plunge or cold shower every day and people think I'm crazy. But I'm like, listen, it takes a minute for your shower water to get warm. Yeah, fight the buck. It's up in there and yeah, you think you're like, oh my gosh, why am I doing this? But you're so right. I felt like I had a couple of traumatic bursts and I felt like my body never had a fight or flight, which always made my anxiety ready just to like skyrocket at any minute. And so that really has been the only thing that constantly I can do daily, besides like waking up before my children, to like get me to a level where, like I couldn't even assess things, like I couldn't even have been like, hey, the dishes were bothering me Because I felt like you just kind of spiral. But again, no one had taught me this Right. And therapy for sure is helpful, and Whitney's taught me a lot of the grounding techniques with you know something cold, Cold technique.

Speaker 3: 19:08

So these are mints. It's always a big one. Oh yeah, Ice water is huge, especially before.

Speaker 2: 19:15

My job unfortunately has a lot of presentations and things like that. So even having, like you know, my Stanley here and I can take a sip of cold water the sensation. It does help with anxiety too. So that's that's also the like you said a sip of cold water, the sensation. It does help with anxiety too. So that's also the like you said, with candy and cold water.

Speaker 1: 19:31

It really helps a ton, and you know any mom that they're like well, I didn't know that. It's not your fault, you don't know this, oh no, that is why we start with ourselves and then we relay it to our children and we are changing. We talk about generational trauma. Are children and you're changing? We talk about generational trauma. Talk to you whatever you want to say it, and it's really not their fault. It's just we know better, so we should do better now and I think that's a good relay of you know. Is there going to be more books? Is Lily going to have more if it's out of us?

Speaker 2: 20:02

So I would love to. Unfortunately I am not famous or anything like that, so everything did come out of my pocket to publish it and unfortunately it's not why I did it Like I didn't. I actually got a message on Instagram that I was using children's mental health to have financial gain and I wanted to show them that I'm still out thousands so that it was truly to help children who said that I get random messages. I mean, it comes with an open account You're going to get mean messages. But that one really kind of bothered me because if they only knew how much of my own money I was willing to spend and not get back to help little kids out there learn this, then it just that one kind of got to me. It stuck with me. But if I could break even, I'd even like to like I don't even need to make money, just if I could even come close to breaking even to it.

Speaker 2: 21:01

My nephew had a terrible NICU stay and, yeah, my sister's been through it with him. He has AP chromosome disorder, so it's very rare. There's very little literature on it. She's one of the strongest people. I know Everything she's gone through with him.

Speaker 2: 21:18

But her NICU stay completely changed her and so we kind of were talking one day and we talked about if she had had an older sibling at home and how mommy went to have the baby but he didn't come home with her because my nephew was there 10 days and so I'd love to do his name's Henry he's. You don't know how much you could love a baby that's not yours until you have a nephew or adoption Like I love him, like my own, like you have a nephew, or adoption, like I love him, like my own. And so I wanted to do Henry's special stay and do a book about for the big, for the sibling, explaining why, yeah, why, why he didn't come home and that he's OK, he's just he's going to come home a little bit later and he's fixing his boo boos and so like that would probably be the next one if I ever got the opportunity to again.

Speaker 1: 22:06

Oh, I love that and that speaks a lot of our listeners. I had a NICU. My oldest was in for 10 days and I did think about that after that Now especially have a second one. I was like how would you explain that you have multiple kids and like you feel guilty for being at? The NICU of one or not being if you're at home with the other and the NICU journey I never wish on anyone period.

Speaker 1: 22:31

Oh, she says that too it is brutal, brutal, and you are thrust right into it immediately postpartum and to the NICU parents out there. They're just some of the strongest warriors around. So I, I hope and pray you get that opportunity, because, oh me too, yeah, or even just talking about it, I think, even on this platform, like we just did it, helping people realize you know that that is a hard road and or, but you know. Another thing I wanted to mention is I love your instagram rules, oh, your Instagram. But are these like your motivation, like there's one it's all about like a text message. You're like it's just a text message, I'm not being chased by 10. And I was like I feel that sometimes, even if I know, maybe, who I've been texting, that's the off chance. It's, you know, someone random, or is this what I say? And I was like no one has ever said that. Well, that's me, yeah.

Speaker 2: 23:33

So someone asked me how I think of them and I was like I'm so embarrassed to admit, but it's my life. I have something I'm going through and I'm like you know what. I bet someone else could relate to this, and so I just find like a clip that I could put it with and I post it. And I know I originally I kind of hate that my daughter's names in the Instagram handle. I did change it to anxiety, but you know it's come too far to change it and it's on the name of the book, so it's they're gonna know.

Speaker 2: 24:02

But I kind of feel like while I do get to promote my book on there some, it's such an outlet to have others message me and say I don't feel alone anymore. I have those feelings too. I thought I was weird. I didn't know that others felt like this, and so that in itself I feel like it's kind of moved to just an outlet for me. And then in the stories my stories I do share more serious feelings and struggles and things like that. So, but it's just become such an outlet that I don't really want to change it right now.

Speaker 1: 24:37

So I, literally I said we'll link it again. So if you guys, I guarantee you can scroll on Courtney's Instagram and go, is she in my mind? Yeah, it did, and it was like I've never had someone describe that.

Speaker 3: 24:51

But it builds community and you think so often as moms, whether we are in the trenches of the newborn stage or we've got older kids, we need community. We all feel so isolated, especially if we're struggling with postpartum anxiety, depression, ocd, ptsd, anything that falls into that. We all feel so isolated and like we're the only person. But something like this builds that community and we're like wait a minute, I'm not alone. Yeah, a crazy person Like other people are in it with me or they've come on the other side and I don't have to live here forever.

Speaker 2: 25:28

Yeah, yeah. And I mean I even look back to like high school and how I needed to be liked and how I never really like I. I was friends with a different groups but I never felt like I had a my place. I didn't fit Like. I was like a if you take a puzzle I never. I was never. I was always that random piece that like never fit with anyone. And I realize now like it was anxiety and it was. I do have. I was recently diagnosed OCD, just like the obsessional. I don't have compulsions but so I would obsess on people liking me and looking back, they probably did, but I, you know, like I, I thought everyone hated me and I never, never feeling like you fit in is just a horrible way to live. So I hope it's a page people can come to and be like. These are my people, Like I, you know I do have people who understand me and I do belong. So that's just my whole goal of the page.

Speaker 1: 26:25

It's happening there and I think you have such a great perspective. So I'm excited to hear your answer of this one. We ask all our guests this question and it's a loaded question. It's hard, it's loaded, but we've everything. So like be candid, be candid, yes. What is one thing you wish you knew before you're a mom that you know now? So this is you know, mom Courtney, talking to pre-mom Courtney, what would you tell her?

Speaker 2: 26:50

As much as it's important that the baby is healthy, it's important that you are too. You give everything to that. You birth your heart and you give every energy, emotion, feeling to that little eight to 10 pound, maybe littler being and you being healthy and happy is what's going to make you the best mom you can be. So taking time to say hey, I need a shower and I need to eat a meal in peace doesn't mean you're a bad mom at all. It doesn't mean you're a bad mom at all, and I also wish that I knew.

Speaker 2: 27:27

Every single time your kid says you play with me, you're not going to want to say, yeah, like that doesn't make you a bad mom. That makes you a mom. You are human right, yes, and it's not. There are going to be several days where you're counting down to bedtime, and that doesn't mean you don't love your kids. It doesn't mean they don't feel loved. It means that you are dealing with emotions that many don't understand. There's still a stigma of anxiety and depression and everything, and you're fighting that while being a phenomenal mom, and you're allowed to be tired. You're allowed to be tired. So I would just tell myself that, and I wish that I would tell pre-mom Courtney to speak up.

Speaker 3: 28:16

Yeah.

Speaker 2: 28:17

I feel like I did a lot of suffering alone. My husband kind of checked out also during the first year. I know they say like dad's postpartum whatever, but they don't have those hormones and stuff like that. But they do struggle and so he did and kind of checked out. So I was kind of on my own and my mom even says to me like why didn't you tell me?

Speaker 1: 28:36

Yes, I've heard that a lot myself.

Speaker 2: 28:38

Yes, and I just felt like, because then I thought I wasn't a good mom, I thought that I should be able to handle this like you did. I remember my mom being just a warrior and like we had home cooked dinners and she did work full time and was taking us to activities and I never really saw her tired. And so I felt like, wow, I should have never become a mom because I can't do this. I'm not cut out for it, but I am. So it's just. I wish I would have known all those things, that it's not a Pinterest board, it's. It's hard, it's very hard, and that is okay to say.

Speaker 1: 29:12

Well, you have inspired and courage and will still continue to, and your pain and journey is in your purpose now. So we really appreciate you coming on and are going to when this you know the episode goes live, link everything and we'll link Lily's special toolbox. We're going to encourage our moms to add to our toolbox. That's right, awesome, anytime. Courtney, we thank you and we thank you.

Speaker 2: 29:42

Of course, yes, this was amazing. So much fun. Okay, guys, until next time.

Speaker 1: 29:45

And we'll see you, of course. Yes, this was amazing. So much fun. Okay, guys, until next time and we'll see you guys next week.

Speaker 2: 29:51

Okay, thanks guys, bye.

Speaker 1: 29:55

Maternal mental health is as important as physical health. The Preview Alliance podcast was created for and by moms dealing with postpartum depression and all its variables, like anxiety, anger and even apathy. Hosted by CEO founder Sarah Parkhurst and licensed clinical social worker Whitney Gay, each episode focuses on specific issues relevant to pregnancy and postpartum. Join us and hear how other moms have overcome mental health challenges, as well as access tips and suggestions on dealing with your own challenges as moms. You can also browse our podcast library and listen to previous episodes at any time. Please know you're not alone on this journey. We're here to help.