Speaker 1: 0:09

Hey guys, welcome back to Preview Alliance podcast. This is Sarah here and I am bringing back. If you have been a listener with us for the past couple of months, you know her, you love her. Our sleep guru Iannotti, from nested rest to sleep, she has walked us through newborn three to four months. We survived it. Now the babies are five months and on, and this is the episode that you guys are like going to turn up the volume, get your notepad and get ready for it. So welcome yeah.

Speaker 2: 0:41

Thank you so much for having me, Sarah.

Speaker 1: 0:44

Okay, so we pulled our Preview Moms and you know this is so fun because your first newborn one was really around the time a lot of our moms had their baby or was right fixing too, so they're like falling along and so I'm like, what now do you want to know? And I've got some really great questions. So, all right, here comes the first one. All right, we survived the four month regression. What is to come? When it comes to regressions? What should we be on the lookout for?

Speaker 2: 1:14

Yeah, so, honestly, the regressions can come at any point in time. So if you go back to the previous episode, we kind of reworded the concept of regressions into developmental progressions. So the progressions, they occur around the four, the six, the eight to nine months, point, 12 months, 18 months and the 24 months. So those are the developmental progressions that occur Now. Regressions can occur at any point in time and that is due to sickness, travel, off days, maybe like some imbalance in family dynamics, such as mom going back to work or starting daycare. Anything that can influence and impact their normal schedule and routine will lead to a regression. Travel is the huge one as well, so all of those things will lead to a regression. So regressions can occur anytime. Progressions are developmental, which occur when I stated them previously.

Speaker 1: 2:27

Now I guess and this goes along this other mom's question is my son started rolling sitting up. Sleep time looks like a circus. Okay, what do you tell this mom? Right, because she's like do I get him? When does this stop Like?

Speaker 2: 2:44

oh yeah.

Speaker 2: 2:45

So whenever you see them doing new skills, you want to make sure and practice them as much as possible during those awake windows.

Speaker 2: 2:59

And the key is, because they spend so much of their time in a 24-hour period in their sleep space in their crib, you want to have them practice those new skills in their crib. That's going to help you in the long run, because when your baby is about eight or nine months and is able to pull up and hold on to the crib, more chances are that they're not going to know how to get back down and get you know. So they're going to be crying out for you, you know, want you to put them back down and, believe me, I was in that cycle with my first one and it was like a constant thing because she did not know how to get back down after she pulled herself up. So, practicing any kind of new skills that your baby is developing inside of the crib. And bonus tip Put them in the sleep sack when you're doing these practice runs, because they're going to be in the sleep sack in the crib most of the time.

Speaker 1: 4:03

Totally no. I just had a flashback to Will when he you said this. I remember I heard him cry. He stood up for the first time at night and I looked at the baby monitor and I was like what is happening? And no one had said anything to me about this before. So I was just like, remember I hit Bill, I'm like what do we do? And then he just I was like you don't know how to get down.

Speaker 1: 4:28

And it was actually another mom friend who gave me this tip. I mean, she'd been veteran mom. I said she's been there, done that, she's survived it right. And she was like play ring around the rosy with him and teach him to fall down or sit down. No one ever said to me your kid's not going to know how to get down or your kid's not going to know how this. So I, that's a huge, like golden nugget of advice, mom, it's like it's going to come. Let's go ahead and be prepared Now. Let's dive into it a little bit further. So once you teach them to go down, what do you do? If you know confidently now this is not us our first time with our first kids being like uh-oh, what do we do? We've practiced, we know they can go down. What does, what do we do?

Speaker 2: 5:12

Yeah, so when you're practicing the developmental skill whether that's rolling, putting them back down you kind of just want to make sure that it's like a playful setting. Now I wouldn't encourage you to necessarily put toys in the crib, because we kind of want to still keep that space for sleep reasons. But when you are practicing those skills you want to kind of just practice for a few minutes during those awake windows, not the whole entire length, right, it's like short nuggets of time and kind of really encourage them. Like you said, ring around the Rosie.

Speaker 2: 5:55

I love to do hide and seek with them, so like maybe like moving yourself around the crib and kind of getting them to where you are is also a great thing, like especially if you're at the rolling stage, like this mom was, so like rolling them from one side of the crib to another side of the crib so you can kind of position yourself where they'll come to you and that just helps with those skills as well. One thing that you want to keep in mind, especially with the rolling aspect, is some may get frustrated when they're sleeping on their bellies Initially, but you want to still have that pause in place and give them a chance to either get comfortable or maybe try to roll back on to their backs if they can. So you want to still before intervening. I know our mama hearts are like let me go, let me go. But you want.

Speaker 2: 6:58

You want to have that pause in place, kind of like you know. Let them kind of work through it a little bit. I'm not saying for 20 minutes or anything. I would say like start small, like a minute or two, and then go in and help. Yeah, that was another.

Speaker 1: 7:12

I remember hit me hard. He rolled, will, rolled and couldn't get off his belly and I was like, oh boy, but then that's what we did. We practiced and practice and then he got comfortable and at night then he chose to sleep on his belly, which let's talk about that for one second, because I gave me a lot of anxiety. I suffered from post-barm anxiety and you know it's always back as best and it is until they can roll right and if they have the strength to roll over and lift their head up and turn their head. I think that's a big point that moms get a little nervous about.

Speaker 2: 7:48

Yeah. So the American Academy of Pediatrics recommends that once your baby is able to roll, they can sleep on their bellies, especially if they're like over six months. The risk of SIDS is dramatically less after that point. But I know our anxiety takes over and that's totally understandable. And my thing is practice during the day. So let your baby roll over as much as you can for naps and, just like, make sure, look out for the signs Like are they able to roll back on their backs, Are they not? Are they struggling? And then you can kind of use your assessment during nap time for a nighttime, like, okay, they need my help. I'm going to go in every time they're on their bellies and flip them back. Now, just keep in mind that they could also think of it like a game eventually as well, depending on their age. So that's why the pause is very important.

Speaker 1: 8:46

I let, yes, pause. Okay, so now let's see where we've talked about what can happen. Now, what are we looking for in a sleep schedule at five months? Like, are we looking, you know, newborn? We were super flexible, right, we did our wake windows and it was shorter and we could kind of just do those contact naps. Now these moms are kind of like okay, I need some help, let's get a little routine, I need to get a little life back. So what does this look like? Or what should they be thinking about this point?

Speaker 2: 9:18

Yeah, so around the four to five month point you actually want to start transitioning your baby down to three naps.

Speaker 2: 9:27

So by the time they become five months they should be approaching like a solid three naps schedule. Now awake windows should be about an hour and a half to two and a half hours, the one before nap one being about an hour and a half to an hour and 45 minutes ish, and then the one before bedtime being closer to two hours and 15 minutes to two hours and 30 minutes. So remember, if you listen to the previous episodes we talked about, as the day progresses those awake windows get longer and longer and that's why there is that range there. And another thing to keep in mind your baby can totally fall outside of that range as well. So just keep those two things in mind when you are adjusting awake windows, transitioning down to three naps. If you need some more guidance on how to make that transition down to three naps possible, I am going to give a link to my blog post on how to do nap transitions that you can reference for step by step instructions. Other, yeah, but definitely on three naps by five months.

Speaker 1: 10:36

Is it realistically to say OK, let's talk sleeping through the night? What would sleeping through the night look like at this stage?

Speaker 2: 10:45

Again, it's super variable. So the definition. Let's talk about the definition. Yeah, the definition is so family dependent, right? Like for me. When I used to say sleeping through the night for my son, I was like, oh, he started sleeping through the night at two months. But for me that definition was from like 8 pm to like four or five in the morning. Right, because I was happy with that progression of sleep that he had. But for some that's not sleeping through the night, right? So sleeping through the night is like from maybe eight to eight, or eight to seven or something like that. So the definition varies as well. So what does that definition mean to you as a family, right?

Speaker 2: 11:30

Sleeping through the night can happen at any point in time, whenever your baby is ready developmentally, Sleeping through the night for like 10 to 12 hours. Some babies can do it at five months, some babies can't even do it at 12. So I wouldn't put yourself in this expectation bubble like, oh my god, my baby's like five, six months. They should be sleeping through the night or having 10 hours of solid, straight sleep. I wouldn't really hold your baby for that high bar, okay, some babies can also need feedings at this age too. So you want to keep that in mind.

Speaker 2: 12:09

Especially if you're like a nursing mom, you're going to need to pump in the middle of the night as well. So it's not like your baby might be sleeping through the night, but you're still going to have to wake up and pump to prevent other issues from happening right. So there's so many factors that influence this and I kind of don't want you to feel pressured that your baby should be sleeping through the night. I instead have expectations of small wins, like, okay, my baby slept five hours one night. That's a huge win compared to three hours the previous night. The next night they had a six hour stretch. That's a great win. So I want to celebrate small wins. And then changing that mindset, changing that perspective, and then implementing all of these healthy sleep foundations that we've previously talked about will together increase the chances of your baby having those 10, 11, 12 hour stretches at night.

Speaker 1: 13:13

And we will link from your blog about the pause and letting themselves settle, and we'll go. You can always go back and look at you know, you can look at your nursery setup. You've got the shades, you've got the white noise, how to transition out. We've talked about all that. So if you're a mom and you're going wait, I'm starting at ground zero here that's perfectly fine. Go back, listen to our episodes. Those tips are still valid here. We'll link the blog post.

Speaker 1: 13:40

But what I guess on this topic, right? So since it's expectations, we can go into what people are going to say to us, right? And I remember I chose sleep training for both my children and cause. Sleep was a huge factor in my mental health. It played a huge role in post-barn depression and anxiety for me and, obviously, my relationship with my husband. We needed to get back to some level that worked for our family.

Speaker 1: 14:11

Now there was people in my family that wanted to say sleep training is going to create a disattachment between you and your baby. Your baby is going to be scarred for life, blah, blah, blah. So you are evidence-based, you are research, you have done your homework here. What do you say to that mom who's like I want to do this, how do I justify it? I mean, if she feels she needs to right Cause, I think at some point as moms we just get past it. We don't need to justify it to anybody. But in the beginning we're very vulnerable, right, and that kind of older generations at times can be harsh. So what do you say?

Speaker 2: 14:51

Yeah, so sleep training, the process of sleep training obviously includes some level of crying, right, but that itself has not been proven by research that it has any impact on the parent-child attachment and the crying that's involved. That also has not shown that it has any long-term effect or impact on the child. I have a great blog that I can share, talking about the whole cry it out approach and how crying impacts long-term development and if it's even needed for sleep training. Right, you can be as responsive as you want, at least when you work with me, when my clients are as responsive as they want to be, I just change up some methodology that I provide to them based on what they are okay with.

Speaker 2: 15:53

I have some families tell me like I am okay with letting them cry for 10, 20, 30 minutes, right, whereas some like I just got a text message thread with a mom I'm working with and she's like I can't even do five, like I can't, and so like, okay, let's change it up. So it's like how responsive do you want to be? What is your end goal? How quickly do you want to see the results right? Obviously, if you take more stricter methods in place, you're going to see results faster, whereas if you're kind of going slower, which is totally okay, it's just going to take a little bit of more patience and time out of you. So it totally depends on what your comfort level is, what your end goal is, how quickly you want to achieve it. But in the bigger perspective, sleep training has no impact on the parent-child attachment. It has no impact on your child's long-term development. I know there's people out there that say it does, but you ask them where are the studies?

Speaker 1: 17:03

Okay.

Speaker 2: 17:03

Yeah, valid studies, like sound studies, right, like randomized clinical trials. I bet you they have none to show you okay.

Speaker 2: 17:13

And I personally I would do this if it was not okay. Developmentally. I'm married to a child psychiatrist that deals with children and the environmental impact, behavior impact, family dynamic impact all of those things on a daily basis. I don't think he would allow me to be in this profession if I thought it had a long-term impact on the children and the family dynamic as a whole. So yeah, if that is your concern, I have tons of research to share on that as well. Most of it is linked in that blog I was talking about, so feel free to read that, and if you want more research articles on this whole topic, I'm happy to share those as well.

Speaker 1: 17:59

I love that and I think too, knowing who you are you are a mom and knowing just your core, you would not be out here helping moms do this if you at all felt that this was being negatively impactful to them, their family or their children. So we're on the opposite end. We join forces, we're aligned with our missions that we want moms and families to succeed. We want them. You know I again I.

Speaker 1: 18:28

There's so many studies I'm out studies about postpartum depression, postpartum anxiety, postpartum PTSD, psychoses that are directly relinked to sleep deprivation for moms.

Speaker 1: 18:42

And we say a lot of times, like when you're thinking your postpartum plan, you need to have a sleep plan for yourself, right, and that aligns with your baby at some point, right, because it's like you have to at some point.

Speaker 1: 18:57

You cannot expect moms to live at a chronic sleep deprivation level For years and years. And I know my mom still says, you know I had polych and she says I'm still catching up from sleep For where you didn't sleep for years, because back when I was a baby, there was no resources like you, there was not journals, there was not a podcast that gave you these tips, like you had to figure it out. So, yes, I think we have new challenges as moms right now, but I think we have so much access of great information and that's what we're trying to do is give you those experts or our listeners, and be like, okay, here you go, because it can be overwhelming, but we're like, we're gonna link you. Yeah, you know these posts and her and this is who we believe in learn from it. So I think it's, it's challenging, but, like you have to just be confident of where we've made a huge progress when it comes to sleep.

Speaker 2: 19:50

Yeah, and speaking along the sleep deprivation part, just think about how you are as a person when you're sleep deprived, compared to when you wake up so much more rested, like. Your personality is so much better. You can show up so much better for your family, for your children. You're just a happier person. And another thing to keep in mind is that I don't know where I read it. I'm. If I find it, I'm gonna share it with you, sarah, but you're driving and you're sleep deprived. That's actually worse than if you're driving drunk on the streets.

Speaker 2: 20:28

So that is so much worse, especially if you have, like a newborn, a baby in the car, children in the car, anything, even if you don't have children in the car and you're just driving sleep deprived, that's worse than if you were driving drunk. So just keep that in mind.

Speaker 1: 20:42

You know, I think we have to take the shame out of when it comes to moms wanting their child, their babies, to sleep. And why notice a huge difference? It's my children personally. Once they started getting solid naps, solid sleep, overall, I saw a huge difference. So I think it's a double way me, the family and the child. Both are gonna succeed. Now To these moms, where they grasp the five months, where are they expecting to change the next kind of naps situation down? Like what is it I forgot is it's how many, how old are you when you go to two naps?

Speaker 2: 21:16

You are anywhere between Seven and nine months.

Speaker 2: 21:20

I have Experienced where some babies are ready at six months. So again, you want to look out for the signs. I have all of the signs linked inside of that nap transitions blog, so be sure to read that. But once you are on a solid three naps schedule for your five month old, I feel like Hang on to it until at least seven or eight months. And then another thing to keep in mind is sometimes those regression signs, like there's a regression coming around six months, like I said right. So don't confuse those regression signs with signs of the nap transition. So how to distinguish that is Is that with the nap transition your baby is gonna wake up content, happy, they're gonna be not crying when they wake up from their naps, whereas with the regressions they're gonna seem more fussy, cranky and overtired. So that is the biggest difference. So don't confuse regression signs with nap transition signs and Transition your baby down to two naps too early.

Speaker 1: 22:29

Yeah and we'll link everything, the blog post, because I know moms are like, okay, wait, let me write that back down. That's fine, we can, we will link that. And then I know I transitioned my youngest to one nap around 12 months and my oldest was actually 15 months, which they had different lake window tolerances. So my oldest still, he needs to sleep, he can't hang my youngest I think he could go no nap, which we're not doing that at two. But I think that's important too, like every child's gonna be different.

Speaker 2: 23:00

Yeah, yeah, I agree. Like my second, he had two naps until he was 18 months and then we had to transition him down to one naps before he started daycare. So that's another important factor is around the 12 month point. If your baby is in daycare, daycares don't like your child to be on two naps at 12 months. So that's another factor. Even though your baby might not be developmentally ready for one nap at 12 months, the situation might lead them to have that, and this is something we'll probably talk on more when we talk about the 12 month point. But, yeah, just keep that in mind, that you may need to transition down to shorter or fewer naps sooner than your baby is ready, and that's okay.

Speaker 1: 23:45

Yeah, and that follows up with our last question is but you guys please tell me you're doing later on sleep steps? We will, we will. So we will hit 12 months and on. And it's interesting because now I'm having listeners say, well, could she talk about toddlers, right? Because that's a whole thing too, which we will.

Speaker 1: 24:04

So this episode again, this is where our moms who are five months to getting to that one year space, we're going to link your blog post. I think it's the key things we need to remember is when your baby does that sitting, that standing, that rolling, you have to teach them how to get through that, just like anything, like they have to learn it. They have to learn how to get out of it. To really look at the naps schedules, we're going to link that on the blog post. We won't routine here.

Speaker 1: 24:33

We viewed again what is a wake window. That first week window is going to be shorter and then the last one. You know if that's a catnap or whatever that's looking like to get us to bedtime, and then we'll worry about the one nap transition or 12 months, but this period you're going three to two, which, don't worry, we will link everything again. But the big key here is your baby's gonna be changing and growing. It's really a fun period of time and you are going to have the TV and you're going to have some sicknesses, you're going to have travels. But I always resorted back to if they had the good basics. They resolve, that we get back on track and if everything's gone.

Speaker 1: 25:14

hey, wire, call your naughty and say let's talk, girl, let's fix this, let's see what we got, and she'll get you. I love that. Yeah, honestly, I think everybody in a dream world would have therapy paid for. They have sleep consultants paid for, physical PT therapist paid for, if they want to do less, lactation consultants. It would just be an all inclusive kind of postpartum support that I think could make a huge difference in this world.

Speaker 2: 25:41

I want to live on that village or that island, like wherever that is. I want to live because I need all of that.

Speaker 1: 25:50

Yes, if I could create it for moms. Someone asked me they're like Well, why do you think it really changes the world? And I said I think if you supported them off, I think that would really change the world. And there is this thing on Instagram and if you've seen it recently, but it's like a mom will always remember who showed up for her during pregnancy and postpartum and who didn't and I think that's something that you get this opportunity to be there for moms and if you're not, it's going to be impactful.

Speaker 2: 26:20

Yeah, 100%.

Speaker 1: 26:22

So we are both to give realness to our listeners. We're both navigating summertime with you guys, so we are going to go back into mommy land, but listen in, we're going to link anything and we'll. Next time you're going to cover 12 months on, so thank you again and we will talk to you soon. Thank you, bye. Maternal mental health is as important as physical health. The previous podcast was created for and by moms dealing with postpartum depression and all its variables, like anxiety, anger and even apathy. Hosted by CEO founder Sarah Parkers and licensed clinical social worker Whitney Gaye, each episode focused on specific issues relevant to pregnancy and postpartum. Join us and hear how other moms have overcome mental health challenges, as well as access tips and suggestions on dealing with your own challenges as moms. You can also browse our podcast library and listen to previous episodes at any time. Please know you're not alone on this journey. We're here to help.