Speaker 1: 0:10

Hey guys, welcome back to Preview Alliance podcast. This is Sarah, and this week is a special week for us. It is National Awareness of Infertility and we're bringing back one of our guests. You guys know her and love her from our previous episode. But this week I am going to start off just a trigger warning for people that we are discussing infertility, which I know personally I've walked that road myself. It can be hard. So if you're not in the mind space, if today feels really just not the day you want to hear about it, process it some more, come back to it or we'll catch you next week. But with that let's get started. Welcome back, alex. How are you?

Speaker 2: 0:52

Hi, good Sarah. Thank you so much for having me back on here.

Speaker 1: 0:55

I really appreciate it some new listeners every week. Introduce yourself and kind of just bring them up to speed of who you are and what your. I love your mission and your advocacy and your voice in this space.

Speaker 2: 1:12

Thank you so much. Yes, so I am on Instagram and on a few other channels. I talk a lot about my journey to becoming a mother and I went through IVF and years of that and surrogacy and a lot more to have my kids. I also experienced recurrent pregnancy loss. I think it's great.

Speaker 2: 1:32

I appreciate the fact that you just gave people that trigger warning before we started, because I know that, in general, national Infertility Awareness Week is a heavy week for some people, but also it's a big subject. But I speak about it very openly, about my story, and I speak about it like every day because I just think it's so important to continue to normalize these conversations as well and let people know that they're not alone if they're going through something similar. So I just kind of talked about that. I've also transitioned and we're going to talk about this today into talking about mother motherhood more, because I think it's a really big subject. Motherhood comes easily to some people, but not to a lot of people, and I think there's this misconception that if you've gone through infertility when you become a mom, or if you're dealing with infertility while parenting, that you shouldn't complain about being like. You shouldn't have any of the same complaints that you just should feel grateful all the time, and I just want to talk more about that and how you still deserve support, no matter what.

Speaker 1: 2:36

Totally, and you know there's a huge correlation from even research back, because we, you know, we love our evidence, our research on here.

Speaker 1: 2:43

But it was saying so one of the huge risk factors for postpartum depression anxiety is infertility, and so I didn't understand that till I had walked through both journeys and I realized exactly you touched on, we'll dive deeper. But when you have wanted something so bad and it doesn't happen, or let's say, you do get pregnant and you lose that child, and then that dream of that let's blame Hollywood, whoever you want to the fairy tales that were told, right that you magically find this person, you get pregnant For the positive pregnancy test, you have a beautiful, healthy baby and you all just magically carry on. And that is something we're kind of told from the beginning. And when that doesn't happen, it's such and I'm speaking from personal experience wrecking, like it destroys you, because you're like wait, what do I do now? And it's very isolating. So I'm very thankful and I did find your Instagram because it we were looking for people who are open about this, because it is such a stigmatized topic.

Speaker 2: 3:52

Yeah, and I think also last time I was on here with you, we talked a lot about the postpartum anxiety and the postpartum depression, and I experienced postpartum anxiety after my son was born via surrogacy and that was very confusing, because you don't have to be the birthing partner to experience anxiety and depression when you have a new baby, and I think that that's also another thing that's really hard for people to understand and it's really hard to ask for help because you think you're just doing something wrong and, like you said, infertility increases the chances of that happening.

Speaker 2: 4:26

And it's really hard to ask for help because you think you're just doing something wrong and, like you said, infertility increases the chances of that happening. And it feels so unfair that, after everything you've gone through that now you're also dealing with anxiety or depression as a parent, and I just encourage everyone to please get the help that you deserve on that, because you are not a bad parent just because you're feeling that way, and sometimes I think it's easy to take that blame on instead of asking for help. And I recently launched a program that supports moms who have gone through or are still going through infertility, and I will be sharing a link in the show notes. It's just a free download. It's a little nine steps to embracing your motherhood, because I genuinely believe everybody deserves support through this. And just because you really, really wanted your child doesn't mean that you have to just be grateful 100% of the time and have no other feelings, because there are so many things to process just by becoming a parent in general, but especially after infertility and loss.

Speaker 1: 5:29

And infertility is such a I call it like a self-blame game. Right, You're just like, well, what did I did wrong? Or you know, I've tried all my life not to get pregnant. You know, then, when I want to get pregnant, it doesn't happen. Or it is to the sense of you and your partner. Sometimes it's really hard to communicate during that because you may be undergoing, you know, fertility treatments and that's testing and that's injections and that's tracking and that's doctor's money and that's time, and then your partner's going. I can't do anything to help her. I want to help her. I can't make this better. And then, yeah, carrying all that as a mom, you have other children, which people are, probably. You know, people say the most insane things, right, Like I'm sure you've been said incredibly horrible things being so open about this. But it's like we should be blessed. Blessed. You have a child, right, Can you not be happy?

Speaker 2: 6:27

Yes, and I think that's why, even no matter what right so when you're trying for a child and you have no children, there's all this pressure of why are you waiting so long? Why don't you have any kids yet? And I think those questions are awful because, yes, I share my story. I wasn't always so open about it, but people have the right to keep that to themselves and be private about it as well, and they shouldn't have to deal with people all the time asking them about their personal lives, which is none of anybody else's business. And it's already hard enough to go through infertility, let alone having people remind you of it every day. And then if you're going through secondary infertility and you're trying for a second or third child or more and you've already have children, like you said, and you're dealing with infertility, that is so confusing because people the whole time are saying you should just be grateful for the child you have or the children that you have. And why are you doing this to yourself? Why do you keep putting yourself through this? And you're already saying those things to yourself, so it's horrible to hear them from other people, because then you're just like maybe they're right, maybe I, you know, and so I remember feeling so horrible because I felt like my first son wasn't enough, like that's not actually how I felt, but I felt like that's what it looked like. If I just kept putting myself through this, then am I saying that my son isn't enough by continuing to want more children? But that's so unfair because most people, if they have one and they want another, they just have another child Like it's not a big thought, it's not guilt, they don't feel bad about it, they for people who easily get pregnant, it's just, you know, have a kid, have another kid. And, like you said, I think there's this, there's these lies that we're told when we're growing up that that's the only option of what's going to happen. You're going to want kids, you're going to have kids, that's it.

Speaker 2: 8:13

I did never consider the fact that pregnancy did not equal a baby, like that was something that, and especially going through IVF, I knew it was a possibility to have a miscarriage, but when you go through IVF and you have tested embryos and for me it took my body so long to prep and it was over a year of going to doctor's appointments and having things canceled to the point where I was finally doing a transfer again and then to have a miscarriage after that. I just thought, how, how is this ever going to happen if it's not happening with all of this prep? And how does it happen for people with no prep, you know? So it's like you just have all of these thoughts and self-blame and self-doubt, and then, if you do get pregnant, there's so much anxiety during the pregnancy of you're worried about getting attached to the baby because you think maybe I won't actually meet them, but it's also impossible not to get attached, and so it's just, it's so hard. I mean, I know for me, even when we were expecting via surrogacy, and then I ended up having a spontaneous pregnancy for my third son where I was able to carry him, but with both of those pregnancies even if I wasn't carrying son, where I was able to carry him, but with both of those pregnancies, even if I wasn't carrying. And when I was, I was so anxious until the moment that he was in the world with us and we were holding him.

Speaker 2: 9:34

And I think part of the problem with that then is that I didn't get help that I needed during the pregnancy. I thought I would just kind of keep pushing through. I didn't get the help that I needed during infertility, because I was so obsessed with just continuing to move forward. I felt like I was just wasting all of this time. So it was like the time and the waiting is really, really hard. So I was just pushing, pushing, pushing and thinking I'll just deal with it later, I'll just deal with it later. Or the naive thought of well, when I have the baby in my arms, then everything will be fine, because that's what I wanted, that's all I've been wanting. And that's just not true, because even when you have the baby, you still have all of this grief and heavy things of everything that led you to having that child, and then you don't want to put those feelings on them.

Speaker 2: 10:28

And it's not their burden, it's not their job to make everything go away for you, and so that's why nobody should go through this alone, and I 100% think every single person needs some sort of support system to help them through it, and even once they become a parent you know, and again, if you go back.

Speaker 1: 10:48

So the US task force recommends, you know, infertility. If you are experiencing that for therapy, for support, and people are just like, well, I have a supportive partner or my friends. That road is really long and the thing is sometimes our immediate partners and friends they are not the most equipped to walk it with us in the way, to help us overcome those deep levels of grief, because gets messy, right. And so then when you need someone who's walked it before to talk with you, or a therapist or you know a provider who understands right, I know this is not what you expected, this is not what you wanted Like, how are you doing mentally? You know, and you hit on it, pregnancy after loss, I felt like when I experienced my youngest after we had had at that point I'd had two miscarriages prior I was very detached, like you said.

Speaker 2: 11:52

You hit the nail on the head.

Speaker 1: 11:54

I remember my best friend saying I haven't even seen a bump picture, text me a bump picture and I was like I don't know, I just. And I looked down I'm like, wow, I, you know, I do have a little bump going on now. And I remember I sent it to her and I, like, quickly, was like I don't know, I just, and I looked down I'm like, wow, I, you know, I do have a little bump going on now. And I remember I sent it to her and I, like, quickly, was like I don't want to look at the photo because to me, again, I was trying to protect him and me because I knew it's just one of those. It's like you ripped a bandaid on a level of hurt that you can never ignore.

Speaker 2: 12:28

It's just, it's so hard because, I agree, I feel like part of it is you don't even realize what you're doing. You don't even realize how much you're trying to protect yourself. And there's also, in addition to protecting yourself, and not wanting to share it, because you're worried that it's not going to stay, that it's not going to be real. I think also there's this layer of anger because when I had my first son, I didn't have any loss before him and he was our first round of IVF. We were extremely lucky with that and I mean we still needed to do IVF but like, relatively, I felt very lucky. So I had a good pregnancy with him. I wasn't anxious, I was like everything went well.

Speaker 2: 13:07

But then, after everything, we went through to have our second and then when I was pregnant with my third son because when we were expecting via surrogacy, I was pretty anxious the whole time it was also 2020. And so I couldn't see her at all. I couldn't go to any appointments, like it was very detached and it felt very. I did not like that, but I hadn't. I was just happy that he was going to be with us. But I wasn't as worried because I trusted her body more than my own. I thought she's had two healthy babies Like she can do this, he's in the best place he can be to make it here. And even though I was really anxious about it and I had no control because it wasn't my body and I couldn't see her, I just think I felt in that moment better than I would have with my own body. And then when I got pregnant with my third son and I was pregnant, I remember I had built up pregnancy so much in my mind of what it was going to be like to experience it again and what it was going to be like to feel him as, like he grew, and I ended up hating pregnancy because I was so anxious the entire time and all I remember it feeling so long because all I wanted was to have him in my arms. And I think that there's this and that's another thing that I felt like other people couldn't relate because one I felt how dare I complain about this? I'm finally having another baby and I'm pregnant and so many people wish that they were in that situation. So I felt like I shouldn't complain for that reason to I had become pregnant with him the old fashioned way, right. So I couldn't believe that happened. I needed a lot of support for my doctor to stay pregnant, but I still felt like, again, can't complain, I got pregnant, wasn't supposed to happen, you know.

Speaker 2: 14:53

But then I think that when people don't have a difficult time getting pregnant or staying pregnant, they really feel like pregnancy can feel long because of the physical aspects of it, like the feeling sick or getting big or feeling uncomfortable. For me, that is not the part that bothered me, because symptoms almost kind of make you feel better when you've experienced, yeah, see, like if I didn't feel sick, I was like is something wrong? I don't, I don't feel nauseous, like you know, and so there's those feelings. But then for I think, when you've dealt with loss and infertility or one or the other, it's really more I just want him or her in my arms. It's not about the discomfort of the pregnancy, it just feels long because you, the goal is not pregnancy, the goal is having a baby right. So that's just what you're waiting for. You're just waiting to get to that moment and I think that's where, with the program that I'm going to share the link to the download with, I created this from my experience, but also just from so much of my own seeking out help, seeing therapists, seeing what worked for me, reading all of these things, doing all of my own research of what worked for me and what would help, finally make me feel like myself again, because I just felt like I was in a fog for a really long time with it and with that I came up with my own framework for it, and so I work people through finding acceptance, rediscovering joy and nurturing connections.

Speaker 2: 16:23

Those are the main three things that we talk about. It's fully customizable to whatever people need help with. But I think that with that acceptance, you know you're trying to figure out how to move beyond trauma that you've dealt with and figure out how to overcome these overwhelming feelings that are still existing after everything, because there's so much trauma associated with going through it, there's so much grief, and I think for me and I think this is why I focus on the finding acceptance piece of it first that no one wants that path to parenthood and even though I'm grateful that I have my kids, I still wish I didn't have to go through it to have them. I'm not glad that I went through that experience, right, yeah, and so I think that if you continue to focus on that. I hate that I went through this. I'm so angry that I went through this. I'm so upset that I went through this At a certain point.

Speaker 2: 17:21

It did happen, though, and you can't change that, and so that's why I think working through those feelings and then just accepting the journey that you had to get there and starting to find ways to not just be so angry and so upset about it is important in terms of moving forward too, and then, with that, figuring out ways to celebrate your own authentic motherhood and figuring out ways to celebrate exactly who you are. And then, with that, figuring out ways to celebrate your own authentic motherhood and figuring out ways to celebrate exactly who you are and like, for me, I'm not the same person that I was before I went through any of this, and I think that I at first thought, oh, I need to get back to who that person is, but I'm never going to be that person again, and that's okay. Like there's so many different seasons and we change through different experiences, I know that for my husband and I, I think we our relationship shifted over time so much through infertility, because and we're lucky and we continue to support each other and find ways to be there for each other. But I think what you said we supported each other, but I also needed a support system that wasn't just him. And that made me feel bad because I've been with him, for we've been together since high school and so we've gone through so many things together. But for us a lot of things kind of went smoothly up until we tried to have children. You know, we met in high school. We never broke up. We had a very solid relationship, we moved in together, we got married, like everything just went smoothly. And then having kids did not go smoothly and then it ended up being, you know, almost a decade of our lives just trying to build our family.

Speaker 2: 19:03

And I think that's another part of it where when people don't have a difficult time, they don't even really think about having kids. It's just kind of a side thought. Not that it's a side thought, I know they're thinking about it, but when you go through infertility and loss, it is an entire chapter of your life just to have your kids. Yeah, and then there's this also, when you were saying the cost people will complain about how expensive it is to raise children. They're like well, it's expensive for me to even try to have a child. Yeah, and it's not even guaranteed that I'm going to have that child and that's seems really unfair too.

Speaker 2: 19:40

So I think that's where, when I'm talking to people and helping them work through it, a big part of finding ways to still thrive through who you are now and celebrate who you are now and face the fears that you have still, because I one of the biggest fears I did a survey on this for people who have gone through infertility and loss is something happening to their child. For people who have gone through infertility and loss is something happening to their child yeah, that's their hair and I know that. I feel that. I felt that and realizing that some of those fears, while you can take certain precautions and be careful, you can't control everything and they probably will be okay. You know, and I just and I think for me my biggest anxieties when I was dealing with the postpartum anxiety was something happening to my children. I was nightmares like so, so intense, so vivid, and it's terrifying because you think, well, the other babies that I wanted were taken from me. So, yeah, there's this intense fear and I realized even now my oldest is seven and you know I have these thoughts that I think I don't know if every parent has, these thoughts of sending him to school and I'm just a little bit worried all day about him, until I pick him up again and, you know, send my three-year-old to daycare, and I just think you start to work through all these things in your brain of what could go wrong, and that's not healthy either. So, I think, just trying to face that those are real, and I think for me it's like triggers, what are your triggers? Absolutely. And triggers will happen, they will happen. And so it's just kind of not trying to pretend like they won't happen, but acknowledging what they are and then trying to figure out a game plan for, okay, how are we going to deal with these triggers? You know, like and it doesn't have to be the same every day Like if you, if something is triggering you you can choose to, like for a lot of people that are going through it, especially with secondary infertility and loss, it can be baby showers or pregnancy announcements, right, and kids, little kids, birthday parties, things like that.

Speaker 2: 21:56

It can be really hard and I think it's a situation where, okay, let's say you were invited to a baby shower, you can say that you are going and you can change your mind, because maybe that day is just harder for you and if they're a good friend, they understand they have so many other people to celebrate with and that you will be there for them. But this is not the day that you can be and you just can't. You have to also protect yourself, and I think that's perfectly okay. Another thing with that is, I think, if you're the one having the baby shower or the kid's birthday party, I really hope that you continue to include those people that are going through things.

Speaker 2: 22:32

At least invite them, because I think what can happen is that it's like hard because you say, oh well, I don't, I don't want to go right now because I'm just in a bad space with it, but then people stop inviting you to things and then you just get more isolated and feel like no one is ever going to invite you to anything again. So I think just giving people the option of coming and then understanding that maybe it's not, they're not in the right head space for it, is another part of it, and so I think that's what the trigger is just figuring out. Okay, some days I'm going to face it, some days I just can't deal with it at all and figuring out all these different ways to cope with it, because triggers will come up sometimes you know, yeah, absolutely.

Speaker 1: 23:13

I think that's a really good point. And I think you know triggers are. There are two different sets right, like if you do not have a child yet, right, clearly. There are two different sets right, like if you do not have a child yet, right, clearly, you kind of have more of a. I say this in a way of like I know, when I had the miscarriage and trying to get pregnant yeah, you know, I holidays I did not want to get on Instagram because everybody announced it feels like at a holiday, right, or you know, there it just seems certain times a year, that's you, literally all you see is pregnancy announcements. And then, on the flip side, I think second infertility is really interesting too, because you have this being that you love so much your child with you, right, and so, like they don't know, mommy's triggered. So, yeah, that birthday party is hard. So, yes, let me make getting in the car even harder for her.

Speaker 3: 23:59

Let's you know, like you know that's so true.

Speaker 1: 24:01

Right. So, like then, it's two different experiences but you really need same support but different ways. Right, because that mom who now she's probably not, she's not sleeping. Right, because, like moms, we depends if our kids are sick, well, regressions, whatever, but yeah, so it's different than saying I don't have my child yet I but yeah. So it's different than saying I don't have my child yet I can politely decline since I can take time for myself that day, versus a mom who's like, ok, well, that's their best friend and you know that's a class party we're going.

Speaker 1: 24:32

Everybody's mom is pregnant with their third or second. Now you know I'm seeing this and you've got to kind of figure out how to set your mind up for those situations. And I fully believe, equally or hard, different challenges, but not talked about, is, like you said, that mom who's walking through the infertility, who has that child. Because, yeah, she's getting asked when do they get a brother, do they get a sister? She's seeing it, she's still continuing on with her obligations. She's already feeling guilty, like, is he not enough? Is she not enough? And it's time away sometimes from that, from her child, for to get there, you know the doctor's appointments and visits and again it. Is that not talked about? And we're going to just gaslight a mother and she's just going to have to smile and have to push down her feelings. Which we're saying the just gaslight a mother and she's just going to have to smile and have to push down her feelings. Which we're saying the opposite. Let's talk about it, let's get you support. Yep, exactly, but no one thinks about that.

Speaker 1: 25:31

no one thinks no, no it's like already fought 15 more, as I say sometimes before lunch with littles. Yep, get on somewhere and then see something or be asked, or like what if she got her period that day when she was like this is the month?

Speaker 2: 25:47

I think that's such a good point, because I think it's such, all of these experience like you said, it's not a comparison. They're all difficult in their own ways, but to be dealing with infertility or loss or both while you are parenting is so hard and there's just so many different feelings that are associated with it. And exactly what you said because you can't just not go to these things, you have to face the triggers more frequently because you're not going to take away that joy from your child just because you can't handle it that day. And it becomes the thing where it's like when you become a parent, you want to do everything you can to put your child first. But trying to put your child first while you're also going through all of this is so hard and there's so much grief and guilt associated with it. I know that I missed his Halloween when he was one and a half, almost two, because I was on bedrest from having a transfer and I literally could not get out of bed because that was the that's what the doctor, that was their protocol, and I remember just thinking this just I hope this is worth it, like I hope that I'm missing it for a reason, and then that pregnancy ended up ending in a miscarriage and I was so angry because I thought, not only am I upset and grieving that I lost this child that I wanted, but I also missed out on moments with my son for no reason, and it's like you can't know that's going to happen, son, for no reason, and it's like you can't know that's going to happen, and so it's unfair. But it also just feels like you're missing all of these things potentially and I know that he wouldn't feel that way Like he was one and a half, he didn't know and he still had his dad around, you know.

Speaker 2: 27:34

But I just felt like all of these moments, or all of these even just simple everyday moments that I felt like I was missing out on because of doctor's appointments or things that were going on physically with my body, or sometimes I just felt like it was hard to stay present because I was so upset about something. And I remember being so angry about it because even that year for Thanksgiving, we spent that Thanksgiving with our family and I was just so detached because I was just really upset because we had just had our loss. And then the following year we had another loss and it was just like it also became like you're saying the holidays, the holiday season, was something I really loved, and then I wanted to enjoy it with my son, but then it became I dreaded the holidays because it's like you want your child to have this magical time, but then you're dealing with all of these people asking you questions or you're dealing with all of this grief. I mean, I I know from experience like I had multiple situations where I ended up having to walk away because I was like literally crying and I didn't want to cause a scene or make it. I didn't like that type of attention in public and you know, somebody would say like, oh, better get on number two, whereas I just literally have like my second miscarriage and I just couldn't and I didn't want to justify what they said. I didn't, I couldn't deal with it in the moment, so I just had to walk away. Or, yeah, like it's the, when you have a child, everybody's saying, oh, they need a sibling, are you going to give them a sibling? And it was just so infuriating and just like and, and you just feel like you can't, you can't do anything about it. So it's like that's where you deserve support and someone who understands what you've been through and can help you.

Speaker 2: 29:23

Like when I was saying the triggers, talk about the triggers, figure out what situations you're going to be in for that and then come up with a game plan for how you're going to deal with it or not deal with it. But just you know, ok, I'm going to go to this holiday event. It's going to be difficult, someone is going to say something insensitive, people are going to say the wrong thing because some people can't learn. But then after I'm going to call this person or set up this meeting with this person and I'm going to talk through how I felt about it, work through it and express my feelings of anger and guilt and fear and all of these things, because I think part of the problem is that people go through these things that will happen and situations they will be in. You can't take away those types of things, but then they just stuff it down and don't talk about it and try to just push forward.

Speaker 2: 30:18

And that's where, like when I'm working with people, it's like I want to talk about those situations right after they happen or right before both, because they are going to happen, but you don't need to deal with them alone and you deserve to deal with it, with someone that understands where you're coming from, who's gonna say the right thing and not make you feel worse about it. And that's where you're saying, like family members and friends, while they mean well and they're wonderful, they're not always the best support system because they don't know what to say and and they just always and it's like they end up saying things that they think are helpful, or I think a common thing for people is that they offer support in the way that they would want to be supported, instead of considering the fact that you might not want to be supported in that way, that it's not the same for everyone and that's actually something my husband and I learned about each other during the process is that we grieve very differently. We want support in a very different way. We go handle situations extremely differently where, like, he likes to be more alone and kind of process it by himself or just with me and and kind of take it quietly, whereas I need to talk about it a lot and a lot of you have a big support and all of that.

Speaker 2: 31:37

So, and I think that's perfectly okay and just figuring out what type of support system, what that looks like for you individually is really important, and that's why, also like one of my sections that I work through and with my framework, is the nurturing connections, because I think that when you're going through this, you can feel like no one else is going through it too and you can feel like you're the only mom at that party that feels the way you do right now.

Speaker 2: 32:06

And it's probably not true. There's probably other people that you can connect with that can understand what you're going through. But I think it's that it's finding those connections with people that have either shared experiences or just are empathetic in a very unique way. I mean, one of my best friends that was the most supportive is someone that doesn't want children at all, but she was just able to empathize in a unique way. And so it's like you find out who these people are and who you can lean on. And that doesn't mean that the other friends aren't friends. It's just in this season you need certain people more than you need other people, right, and it's figuring out who that is and maybe you know a couple years down the road you start to reconnect with those people and now it's a good time for your friendship. But there are just certain seasons where certain friendships have to kind of take a backseat because it's just not the best support system at that moment, and I think that just happens.

Speaker 1: 33:03

Well, and I and two, you know, I think this whole infertility and loss, and it's just we say this a lot it's uncomfortable for people to talk about because it's uncomfortable for us as we're experiencing it. It's uncomfortable for people people who maybe never walked this road to know, like you said, what to say, Right, and they wanting of a baby and desires of to or to add to your family. You know, you just want to give that to someone, you want to give that to yourself and, like you said, you, you ultimately don't have control over that. You can try and do everything, so it is. It's that loss of control and acceptance is a huge word and I hear a lot from moms and it's interesting because, say, they are suffering with depression or anxiety. It's usually later in postpartum that they'll be open about it Because they are so inundated in the beginning of people going, especially if they've been open about their infertility journey, right, oh, how does it finally feel to have her. Or, oh, you must be so happy she's finally here.

Speaker 1: 34:10

I know you guys went through a long road or like and it's well-meaning comments because they have no clue what she's going through, but like she already has such a strong narrative in her head, like we've said, of I have to be grateful, I can't. I can't say motherhood is hard. Or I've heard mom say like I feel like I can't complain because my friends, you know, I got lucky, I got our first IUI or our first round, we got pregnant. And I know friends who never have. I'm lucky. But you're two things can be true at once right, Right, exactly. And that is something that people don't tend to recognize, Like you can be. Acknowledge the hard that you went through there and acknowledge the hard you're going through in postpartum. They don't cancel each other out.

Speaker 2: 34:55

I think that's an excellent point.

Speaker 1: 34:58

And that's what people sometimes think. They're like no, you know I can't complain. But point. And that's what people sometimes think. They're like no, you know I can't complain. But that is something I just want to stress that I don't care how you got pregnant or your child is in this life. If you are feeling a certain way, you have a right to work through that and no judgment.

Speaker 2: 35:15

Yeah, and I think that's a big point with what you just said about two things can be true at once and I think that that's true for every single person in every single situation. It's true for my kids. My seven-year-old can have two different feelings that are conflicting at the same time. You know and I recognize that and I completely understand that. But then when it's happening to yourself, you can feel worse about it and I think that point of you can have a difficult path to parenthood and have a difficult time in parenthood. What you just said, 100%, because I do think that there's this expectation from other people again, like you said, well meaning but that if you really tried so hard for your family, that it just is better now that they're here, everything's solved, everything's gone away, it erases all the grief and pain, and that's just not how it works. In fact, there's probably more and it's harder because of how you became a parent and just being able to give yourself that grace of it's okay that I need help, it's okay to ask for help and it's not. I can't keep torturing myself with these feelings and telling myself that I'm not allowed to be open about it and I think the postpartum depression and postpartum anxiety is still so taboo for people to talk about. In general, people are afraid to talk about it, and so I just feel like and that's why I talk about it and you talk about it it's because the more we talk about it, the more we normalize talking about it, but that a lot of people experience the anxiety, a lot of people experience the depression. But there's also, on top of asking people okay, well, you really wanted your child, isn't it so great being a mom, not thinking again, not their well-meaning. But then there's this also well, if you have feelings of anxiety, if you have feelings of depression and the baby's little people will say I mean, you're just not sleeping, it's because you're having a lack of sleep, it's because you're just adjusting to motherhood, it's because you're just having gotten in a rhythm with it, yet it's because of whatever. So many excuses. And so then you feel like, oh, okay, okay, this is normal. Then it's fine, this is normal that I feel this way. But it's not normal. And even if, even if it happened to every single person in the world, it still wouldn't be normal and it should still be supported. And that's where I think that thing of telling people something's normal and common. While it can encourage them to think they're not alone, it can also make them think they don't deserve support for it then, because other people are dealing with it anyway. I thought that way about miscarriages because people would say, oh, it's really common, lots of people experience miscarriages and I was like, okay, it's common, but this is new for me and this is my specific loss and it's horrible. So that's where it's like telling people things are common isn't always helpful and I think instead, even if it is common, they still need support for it.

Speaker 2: 38:26

And I think it's there's so much pressure on new parents, especially new moms, to just deal with these feelings because everybody else does. Everybody else just deals with it, everybody feels that way, so just deal with Everybody else, just deals with it. Everybody feels that way, so just deal with it and just get through it. And that's so unfair to tell a new mom like, just deal with it. Because I know, like with my first son, I absolutely believe that I was going through postpartum anxiety with him as well, but I didn't realize that until I was diagnosed with it with my second and I thought, oh, I still thought this is exactly how I felt last time, but it's like I didn't seek out help because again I thought I did so much to get him here.

Speaker 2: 39:07

I have wanted to be a mom. He was my first child. I wanted to be a mom for so long and I finally was, and I had a really, really hard time breastfeeding, and I think that's another thing. I totally did not expect that, because people would just make that sound like it's going to be so easy. And there was also all of this pressure of if you don't breastfeed your child, you're not a good mom, you're not doing everything for them. Who cares if you're in pain all the time? Who cares if you can't sleep? Who cares if you have to go to the doctor for me every week to get it drained Cause I had this abscess? You're doing it for your kid and that's. That's all that's important, and I think that needs to change, because you do need to take care of your child and make sure they're okay, but you can't take care of your child if you're not okay 100%.

Speaker 2: 39:55

And you also need to take care of yourself. If you're not, okay, a hundred percent, and you also need to take care of yourself.

Speaker 1: 40:00

That is, and so much you said is so true, and it's. I love how you said you know, just because it's common doesn't mean everybody should be suffering, because I mean, if you think about you know, heart attacks relatively common, right, but they get immediate treatment, right.

Speaker 3: 40:13

Thank you.

Speaker 1: 40:14

No one goes. Hey, alex, you had a heart attack, thank you, no one goes. Hey, alex, you had a heart attack. That's common, you know. Go on home Like and here's this baby, you know, and it's the mental health, like you said, it's taboo. And so I think you do get in trouble with terminology that's thrown around, that's like, and I felt the same way with miscarriage, like everybody would say that to me. Well, you know, statistics say one in four, probably more. You know, and you're just like so what, what am I supposed to do with that? You know, because that didn't validate my loss, it didn't validate Like. I was just like well, what do I do next? You know, like, so I'm in this group of people, but we're all just supposed to live with it. And that's how. I had never really thought about it until you said that way, especially with miscarriage. But yeah, that is almost the first word out of someone's mouth.

Speaker 2: 41:02

It's so frustrating and it's not supportive. And I understand that people think it is because that's the narrative that everyone is spreading is saying oh, if someone tells you they have a miscarriage, just tell them it's common. Just tell them that it happens to a bunch of people, that it's common. Just tell them that it happens to a bunch of people. That will make them feel less alone. It doesn't make them feel less alone. It actually makes them feel more alone and more isolated. And like you're saying, it's saying like it's not validating them at all, because it's saying you're just like everybody else, your loss doesn't matter, because other people have also experienced loss, and that's so horrible. And so that's where I think, instead of saying oh, it's common, it's happened to other people, just say like I'm so sorry this is happening to you. This is horrible. No one deserves to go through this. This sucks. I think that's what most people just want to hear. They just want to be validated. They just want to hear that they had a baby and now they don't, and it's horrible and that's it, not. Not, I don't want anybody to try to fix it. I don't want anybody to tell me that it's normal. I just want somebody to say you know what? I'm here with you. This is horrible, you didn't deserve this and you didn't cause this. Yes, like people saying oh well, god, I can't believe how many people still say things about oh well, you know, this is probably what caused it or this is probably you know, people will try to think of ways to justify it. And you're like I'm already doing that in my head. I do not need you to do it too. You know, and I don't. And I think that's, I think, when you're saying like that, the support for people.

Speaker 2: 42:35

I think people are very uncomfortable when they can't fix something for someone else. So they hear that you're going through a miscarriage or they hear that you're going through infertility, they can't fix it. So then they try anyway and they try to come up with and you're like I'm not asking for your opinion, I'm not asking you to fix it, I'm not asking you to help me. I literally just wanted to tell someone and I just want you to acknowledge that I didn't deserve this and that it sucks Like that's it. You know, and I think that's what. It's really not that hard, but people have a really hard time with that because they just want to fix things for people and it's like they get uncomfortable if they can't fix it. And it's like they get uncomfortable if they can't fix it. Or I've had where, if I'm the one that's saying I had a miscarriage, people always oh, I'm sorry, you don't have to talk about that. I'm like, but I brought it up.

Speaker 1: 43:26

I talked about it.

Speaker 2: 43:27

I'm speaking about this, yeah but it's like they get uncomfortable and they're oh, no, no, no, okay, I'm sorry, I'm sorry you didn't that it's like, but I chose to don't make it weird, don't make it something that I shouldn't be talking about. And then they become, you know, hushed and they just don't want to talk about that. And I experienced that even with surrogacy, because when I would tell people like I would have my younger son at the park, my oldest, I would have him at the park, and so many strangers are like, oh, just one, you just have one, which drove me absolutely insane while I was trying to have a second baby, right. And so most of the time I just say like, oh, hopefully one day, you know, kind of that's it. And then when I was actually expecting our second son but it was via surrogacy, in the beginning I would say, oh, we're actually having a second son in December. And in the beginning I would say, oh, we're actually having a second son in December. And in the beginning they were didn't even say anything. Oh, just congratulations, because you couldn't tell that it wasn't me and I didn't always get into it with a stranger, yeah, but then when I was like weeks away from the birth and again say yeah, they like yeah, like looking up and down, like wait, how what? And I'd say oh, actually I'm, I'm not pregnant myself, we're expecting via surrogacy.

Speaker 2: 44:41

And then the conversation goes from congratulations to oh, oh, that's, oh, that's interesting. And then it's like they get nervous about asking you. And then if I say like, oh, I just wasn't able to carry myself and I try to keep it short with a stranger, then they're like oh, oh, I'm sorry, oh God, it's just like people's reactions are always so uncomfortable and you're like I am not the one in this conversation that's making this awkward. You are making this uncomfortable and it doesn't have to be. And it's like, if the person is bringing it up themselves, just let them talk about it and don't act like it's this just taboo thing that they're not supposed to admit. If I'm bringing it up, I'm allowed to talk about it if I want to talk about it. But people get uncomfortable and they think you shouldn't talk about these things in public. But I just don't agree and I would rather make people feel uncomfortable until they figure out that it's not uncomfortable. It's just part of what people deal with and they need to talk about it.

Speaker 1: 45:44

Well, I love that and that's obviously why so many other people love um and go to you, um, in the community that you have built. Just really appreciate that you continue to talk about it because, like we said, if we simply can, just, it doesn't take much to be a safe face for someone to express and to be heard. And here's, hopefully, our listeners have said ah, okay, yeah, they've heard something we've said today that's made them feel not alone and gave them a moment of encouragement to seek out support and tell them again what your Instagram handle is. They can find you there. It is our beautiful surprise, yes, our beautiful surprise, and we'll link this all. But we always ask our guests this and we've asked you before but what is and this does not have to be on the topic that we've talked about but now you, mom of three. Going back to Alex never, no babies yet, but she's starting this journey. What would you tell her?

Speaker 2: 46:47

about motherhood. You know, this is actually something I think about all the time because I feel like probably a book to myself, but I think that if I could say something to myself when we first started trying for kids or first wanted kids would just be this journey is not going to be easy. Please get support throughout the journey. Do not wait until after you're completely done building your family to get support, because I did not know how badly I needed support even when I was in it, and so that's where I think I would just tell myself to please seek out help. Please get support, because you deserve to be supported throughout the entire process, not just after, and so I think that's what I would say, and then I'm going to be sharing in with the support.

Speaker 2: 47:46

I have a free guide to download for your listeners. It's nine steps to embracing your motherhood. It kind of goes over my step-by-step framework, but it's pretty detailed just so that people can feel like they're starting to get that support right there. So that will be linked and people can just click on that and get that free guide.

Speaker 1: 48:04

That's great, alex. We again. We love you, we appreciate your voice in this and keep making people uncomfortable. We'll leave on that and I you know that resonates with me because people ask me what I do and they immediately get uncomfortable when I start speaking about maternal mental health. They're like, oh, they back away slowly. But you know what? We will see the fruits of our labor from this and we're impacting, hopefully, our listeners and I know you for sure are with your new journey. So I appreciate you so much.

Speaker 3: 48:40

All right.

Speaker 1: 48:40

Sarah, we'll link everything, but we'll be back with you guys. A new episode next week, but have a wonderful week. Bye, bye.

Speaker 3: 48:51

Maternal mental health is as important as physical health. The Preview Alliance podcast was created for and by moms dealing with postpartum depression and all its variables, like anxiety, anger and even apathy. Hosted by CEO founder Sarah Parkhurst and licensed clinical social worker Whitney Gay, each episode focuses on specific issues relevant to pregnancy and postpartum. Join us and hear how other moms have overcome mental health challenges, as well as access tips and suggestions on dealing with your own challenges as moms. You can also browse our podcast library and listen to previous episodes at any time. Please know you're not alone on this journey. We're here to help.