Speaker 1: 0:11

Hey guys, this is Sarah with the Preview Alliance podcast, and on today's episode, I'm super excited to introduce you guys to not only someone who I admire personally and has become a mentor to me, but someone who has created a very unique resource for moms, which is the Motherhood Center. Today I'm talking to Paige Bellenbaum, who is a licensed clinical social worker, a mom and the founding director and now the chief external relationship officer of the Motherhood Center in New York. Paige not only founded this amazing resource for moms, which is unique there's nothing like this in the country but she has become the leading voice in maternal mental health, advocating for moms. So I'm so excited for you to meet her today and to hear her story and to leave feeling that you have some great women fighting for you. Stay tuned. All right, guys. So I have the one and only my. I adore this woman. As I said in her intro, paige, welcome.

Speaker 2: 1:11

Oh, Sarah, thank you for having me Right back at you. I adore you too.

Speaker 1: 1:15

We are so excited and you know I gave our listeners a wonderful intro on you before we started chatting. But you know, and I shared with you before we started recording, I think people tend to see me on a very minimum scale, you on a very large scale, as these advocates you know what you want to call it, voices in the maternal mental health space, but like, but they really forget what led us here, like our story. So if you wouldn't mind, paige, just tell our listeners, bring us back to what started Paige's journey our listeners bring us back to what started Paige's journey.

Speaker 2: 1:49

Deep breath, sarah. I feel so honored to be here to talk about this and before I dive into my story, I just want to say you know, as the field of maternal health starts to grow more and more thankfully, because I know you and I have been waiting for this day for a very long time what I have found, qualitatively and anecdotally, is that women and people who decide to go into this profession almost always do it because of their lived experience. I'm actually organizing an event in May, which, as you know, is Maternal Mental Health Awareness Month, when this will be aired, and I've asked a number of women that have graduated from our day program that have gone on to dedicate their professional life and self to working with and supporting other new and expecting mothers and birthing people that are experiencing perinatal mood and anxiety disorders, for this very reason, because I think, more than any other profession, it's the lived experience that pushes people to want to ensure that other new and expecting moms don't struggle like you and I did. That's everything to do with my own personal story. So I am the proud mother of two teenagers and I can't believe that I'm saying that I remember when they were three and six years old, like it was yesterday, and I had my son 17 years ago.

Speaker 2: 3:13

I was a social worker at the time I still am now, and I was trained in recognizing mental health conditions in other people, diagnosing mental illness, and I always feel like it's important to mention that because, as we well know, pmads do not discriminate. So when I look back in retrospect, we know now right that 50% of all PMADs originate during pregnancy and the other 50% originate in the postpartum. I had severe perinatal anxiety during pregnancy but, as so many new moms or expecting moms and birthing people can relate to what's normal and what's not right. You're pregnant for the first time. You're growing a human being inside of you you are so worried and concerned about am I eating the right thing? Am I sleeping enough? Am I drinking enough water? The anticipation that builds up when you're going to get a sonogram or for your anatomy scan or whatever it is what if, what if?

Speaker 2: 4:17

right, and so it's very difficult to discern what is normal anxiety during pregnancy versus clinically diagnostic anxiety during pregnancy. When I look back in retrospect, I realized I was having anxiety like real anxiety, and you know that was my pregnancy experience, right? My midwife at the time said you know, to me after birth, you know, one of the highlights of me calling her office every week sometimes multiple times a week because I was concerned about something that was happening was when I called her after hours and requested an emergency call back because my left breast didn't feel tender anymore and I was convinced that that was a sign of having a miscarriage. And that's how my mind operated throughout my entire pregnancy. This must mean something awful, terrible. And what ended up happening throughout my pregnancy and I see this with so many of the patients I treat is in an effort to protect myself from getting too connected to the baby, because I was so fearful that something was going to go wrong. I tried to distance myself, right. I tried to make it like so I didn't care, so that not if, but when something bad happened I wouldn't have established a relationship with this gestating fetus that I was growing, so that it wouldn't hurt as much. And so that's how I progressed through my pregnancy. When it was time to give birth, I opted to have a natural birth, and for all of you out there who have had a natural birth right meaning so without any epidural my hands go together for you. I bow down in absolute and utter respect. I ended up actually having a natural birth and it was literally the most painful, traumatic experience that I've ever had.

Speaker 2: 6:22

And after 17, 18 hours of active labor and literally to the point where I was having like physical convulsions right before I had my son, as you can imagine, after I gave birth and they laid him on my chest, all I wanted to do was go into a dark room. Wanted to do was go into a dark room, not be around anybody, sleep for three days and eat many hamburgers, right, like that sounds a little silly, but like that's literally all I wanted to do. And when they put him on my chest, I was like he's like an alien, right, I didn't feel a connection, I didn't feel bonded. I was like please take him away, I need to just be by myself. Like, please take him away, I need to just be by myself. And I always share that because it kind of set the stage for what was to come, and because I had a natural birth, you know, they kept us for six hours after he was delivered, sent us home, as with all new mothers. Right, I remember thinking to myself right, there was so much focus on the car seat and getting the car seat in the car and the manual and having somebody from the hospital come out and make sure it was in there and, like, all we could think about was the car seat and it always struck me as not funny, haha, that you leave the hospital with a manual on how to install a car seat into a car. But as a brand new mother or parent, it's like bye, good luck, everybody does, you'll be fine, you'll be fine.

Speaker 2: 7:51

And getting home and immediately being thrown into that cycle of overwhelm, hormones doing like illegal gymnastics inside of you, illegal gymnastics inside of you, sleep deprivation, stress and all of those things really cued me up for a very acute depression and anxiety to follow and I would say, like the haze of the postpartum and just the disorienting nature of it lasted for about three or four weeks and then, right around the fifth, sixth week, like I hit a wall and it was really activated by breastfeeding. I was having all kinds of issues. I had one engorged breast and I had one breast that was very, very small and wasn't making any milk. And for me, like the imbalance of that experience, on top of the mayhem of transitioning to having an infant, it set me over the edge and I wasn't sleeping at all. When my son was sleeping, I had no appetite, I wasn't eating, I would forget to eat. I was losing all of my baby weight very quickly. I was underweight by the sixth week, less than what I was when I got pregnant.

Speaker 2: 9:06

I was petrified of my son. I did not want to be left alone with him. I was so afraid of the unpredictability of him. When would he cry? When would he be hungry? What if he rejected my breasts?

Speaker 2: 9:20

My husband went back to work a week after he was born and I used to hang onto his leg literally begging him not to leave me alone with the baby. I was so scared of what that would look like and I dreaded every single day, and so it was very difficult to bond with him, feel connected to him. I had all these shoulds and supposed tos swirling through my head, not only in regards to how I was failing desperately as a mother to him, but how he was failing. Too right, he was sleeping too much. Right, he wasn't eating enough. My breasts were not performing the way they were supposed to. My body failed me. Right, everything was failing, and it got so intense and so bad right, I started having thoughts of harming myself, not wanting to be here anymore, feeling like my family would be much better off without me. I would think about buying a one-way ticket to another country and never coming back, because surely my husband would do a better job raising our son than I would.

Speaker 2: 10:28

I spent nights at like three o'clock in the morning in the bathroom while my son and my husband were sleeping in the other room like in the fetal position, just staring at the medicine cabinet, thinking how can this be over? What is in there that could potentially put all of us out of this misery? I was having scary, intrusive thoughts on a regular basis of harm, coming to Max and me, being afraid that I was going to do something terrible to him. The thoughts made me nauseous, but I couldn't get them out of my head, didn't leave the house, maybe took a shower once a week I was falling apart at the seams and the most painful part of it all is that nobody around me appeared to see what I was going through, and I think my partner was so afraid himself and in such a state of denial that bless his soul and trust me. After lots of couples counseling, we've been past this. But he actually started training for a triathlon after I had the baby and due to having some wonderful couples counselors speak to us after the fact, like he literally was so afraid and felt so helpless with my condition that he, like quite literally, couldn't run, swim or bike fast enough away from the situation he was. He felt so helpless. And so I see this because, right, yes, of course we focus on women that are struggling with perinatal mental health conditions and partner struggle too, right, whether they are also having a PMAD themselves or they just don't know how to help their wife, girlfriend or loved one who's going through this.

Speaker 2: 12:10

So the culminating effort for me, sarah, was one day I forced us out of the house. I was pushing the stroller with my son in it down the street. It was a gray day. I remember looking around me, everything was in a haze, everything felt foggy, I just felt nothing, and we got close to the corner and to the right of me, this New York City bus started coming close to the intersection we were at. And as the bus started to get closer to us, I had this overwhelming sense of I should just throw us in front of the bus. It would be so much easier if we just weren't here anymore. I could put myself out of my misery and my son wouldn't have to suffer, having me as a mother.

Speaker 2: 12:54

And as the bus started to drive by, I caught a reflection of myself in one of the windows and I looked at this person that I didn't recognize. I had no idea who she was and as that bus passed, I realized I need help and if I don't get help now, I don't know what's going to happen. And I got into a cab and I drove up to the only perinatal mental health clinic that existed in New York City health clinic that existed in New York City. I was able to be seen and, almost automatically, was diagnosed with severe postpartum depression, was put on medication, started therapy, you know, and within three to four months really started feeling like myself again, loving my son, feeling connected and bonded to him. But you know, this whole process took about eight months and even as a licensed social worker, I had no idea what was happening to me.

Speaker 1: 13:56

Oh, paige, I resonate on so many things you've said and even you know I'm almost six years removed from when this happened with my oldest, but I never how you said it and I've never even processed it in my own experience was he was sleeping too much or not eating too much. That thing and I don't think people talk about that aspect of it of like you put that on the baby too, because I was like that was me. And then, how you know, same thing with my husband and my family. I was like y'all didn't see this, and the pediatrician you didn't see this.

Speaker 1: 14:35

My OBs, I called in or I was, you know, I was convinced, y'all, you know. I think you do have to work through that too, right? You're just like, why? Why was it on me, you know, to say I'm not okay, just so much. But I thank you for sharing that and it is I call it, you know, the silent killer of moms, right? Because we don't share and no one's sharing to us, you know, unless you find these circles and these voices and these stories, because I guarantee no one talked to you about this during your pregnancy.

Speaker 2: 15:10

Nobody spoke about it. Now, mind you, I'm going to date myself here. This was 17 years ago.

Speaker 1: 15:16

Which it looks like it should have been five because you look so good, paige, so we're going to put that out there.

Speaker 2: 15:21

Thank you very much. But you know I can say it has improved, but that hasn't been until very, very recently. But you know, since the dawning of time, since the first baby was ever born, there has been little to no education for new and expecting mothers and birthing people around maternal mental health conditions. Now, what's really important to note, Sarah, is I had a history of anxiety and depression preceding the perinatal period, and what I always say to OBGYNs, pediatricians, whoever comes in contact with a new or expecting moming risk factors for PMADS is so critical and it can take a minute right. Number one question have you ever experienced a mental illness before? Depression, anxiety, ocd, bipolar disorder yes, it's important for you to know that you're at a greater risk of developing a PMAD and this is what that means and this is what you need to keep an eye out for. And oh, by the way, your partners here on this OB visit. Well, partner, you actually need to keep an eye out on this more than she does, because when it happens, and if it happens to her, she's not going to know, but you can.

Speaker 2: 16:34

And what really resonated for me, sarah, in all of this and it's so interesting, and I don't know if you've heard this a lot with the work that you do with mothers, but when I moved past my own experience, I would describe it as drowning. I was drowning in an ocean, paddling as fast as I could just to keep my head above water so I could breathe. That's all I could do, and I just was waiting for someone to throw me a life preserver and pull me out onto the shore. And it's actually why our logo and you can see on my lanyard maybe is a life preserver at the Motherhood Center, because we do aim to be that life preserver, right, but it's like what new moms and pregnant people who are struggling need is to be pulled out because they can't do it by themselves.

Speaker 2: 17:21

When I was told, you know and I think I even had to like research online what is postpartum depression and like look and see, are there any? Is there anybody here in New York City who does this work? There's like one, two people at the time, and then will my insurance cover it? Right? Like filling out short-term disability because I needed to take more time off of work because of my illness, right? Who who is struggling and drowning in an ocean has the capacity? Who can hardly stay alive, to try to fill out short-term disability paperwork and go around and call and see if providers accept their insurance right. How can we expect new and expecting mothers that are struggling to be their own life preserver? It just doesn't make any sense and it's not right?

Speaker 1: 18:07

No, it doesn't. And I had a mom not too long ago say she said I said yes when you guys reached out because I was waiting for someone to pick it up. She said I knew, but I was waiting and it was she couldn't. And it sticks with me and that's why I always encourage anyone.

Speaker 1: 18:29

It's like, you know, it goes back to my days of VA training, when we was on suicide, right, there was this old mentality of you don't ask someone because you're you know they're like afraid you'll make them more suicidal, make them do it. And I think people do the same mentality when it comes to moms, their mental health, right, they're like I don't want to mention to Sarah or Paige that they're looking anxious or depressed or are you having thoughts, you know? Because they think, well, what's it that puts in our mind? It's like no, no, no, we're waiting for someone to say let me walk this with you, let me help you, let me help you, let me make that call. And so that is something I've always said it's not a her problem, it's everybody's issue.

Speaker 2: 19:03

It's everybody's issue. It's everybody's issue, and it's interesting you use that exact phrasing. We just we have a listserv and we send out weekly messages to providers and new and expecting moms alike, and the title of our blast this week was you know, nobody's job, everybody's problem, right? Nobody's assigned in the medical community to observe and monitor the mental health of a pregnant or postpartum person. And so, you know, we and rightly so engage medical providers that do come in contact with new and expecting mothers during that time. So OBGYNs, which are starting to get more involved, but there's still a lot of ways to go.

Speaker 2: 19:47

Pediatricians, which have been very difficult to engage. And yet, when we look at the rates of when these symptoms develop and we know that 50% of all PMAT cases originate in the postpartum they're not seeing their OBGYN anymore. They're seeing their pediatrician regularly and frequently, right? But there is no silo of maternal mental health that exists in any of these levels of care, and so that's why we see so many women fall through the crack. Nobody's been tasked to manage and monitor and do all the things that we need to do to ensure women get connected to the care that they need and deserve. And until that becomes a mandate right. Unfortunately, we're going to continue to see the epic 75% of all new and expecting mothers who are experiencing a PMAT not get the treatment or care that they deserve because they're not getting connected to care, and also, sarah, because they're petrified of talking about how they feel, because they're afraid of judgment and they're afraid they're going to have their baby taken away. Right.

Speaker 1: 20:57

That's 100%, 100%. I remember even one of my first therapy sessions, which my family drove me to because I was not at the point where I should have drove alone, you know. And I remember thinking in my therapy session I'm not going to tell her everything, I can't tell her everything because I thought I'm going to be locked up, you're going to take my son away and, to be truthful, I never told her everything. I got better slowly, surely, right. But it's honestly been this podcast, this platform. We're talking to other survivors, because that's what we are. We survived something that nearly took our lives. That's where I've said everything, right, because I I was. Maybe it's my medical background, maybe it's whatever that I was like. I know what happens, right, you're going to label me crazy or you're going to take my rights away, and I think we need to hit on that for a second for our listeners, right, cause that's a real fear. What would you say to a mom who's like Paige? I'm honest. What level of help I need. It's really scary.

Speaker 2: 22:00

So scary and historically we have criminalized maternal mental illness.

Speaker 2: 22:05

We've also the media has done I mean I shudder to use the word great, but I guess I'll use it in this context a great job of sensationalizing the most tragic cases, which drives the stake of fear and even further when we only see the most acute cases in the headlines.

Speaker 2: 22:22

Right, we also live in fear of, if I tell somebody how I'm feeling, they're going to think I'm capable of what happened to that mom in Massachusetts last year, right, who had a very debilitating condition that led to what happened, which also is criminalized and should not be, because when women have a psychotic episode, they are not in their right mind, right, they are disconnected from reality, and yet there's very real fear of if I say anything, what if? And so it is hard, it's very hard to feel trust with a provider when that's what you think is going to happen, right. And so what do you tell a mom who is worried? I mean, thankfully we have some supports that are that have come online recently. I know that the federal government, with the help of Postpartum Support International and the Shia new hotline, I believe and please correct this for your listeners if I get it wrong, but I think it's 888-TLC-MAMA, but those first three numbers might be different.

Speaker 1: 23:28

We'll put it in the show notes.

Speaker 2: 23:30

Yeah, where women can call and speak to a counselor, a peer support person, and talk to them about what's going on and just get a better understanding of, like, what should I do? I think sometimes that is the hardest step. Is that initial conversation right Now, in a perfect world? Right, obgyns and I know there's plenty of them out there because they are so cognizant of the rates and the prevalence of PMEDs right, as I'm sure you've said many, many times with your audience one in five new and expecting moms, those of us who do this work, we know it's more like one in three, but the shame and stigma is what keeps everybody silent. Number one complication associated with childbirth, leading cause of maternal mortality in this country. That, with these statistics that are starting to become more and more recognized, that OBGYNs and the work that they're doing with pregnant people, mostly the best practice would be, as I mentioned earlier, speaking from the get-go right, maternal mental health. This is the prevalence, this is what it looks like.

Speaker 2: 24:35

I'm going to be screening you routinely throughout our work together and I want you to know that the reason why I'm going to be using this instrument to see and be able to track your mental health is, in the event that you're struggling, I have resources available. I want to be able to catch it quick and connect you with the care you need and deserve. We're not there yet, sarah. We're not. I really hope that we will be.

Speaker 2: 25:00

But I also, you know, I also believe that and, again, I know we have therapy deserts all over the country, and I'm in New York City, so you know we're not a desert, but we sure need more therapists that reaching out for clinical support, being evaluated by a trusted clinician or practice that specializes in behavioral health and mental health. I know we don't have a whole bunch of perinatal mental health specialists, but I know that's starting to change too. But getting evaluated and seen by a mental health provider, I think would be my best suggestion to people who are struggling. This is what mental health providers do, and so they're in a better position, I think, to work with mom and not raise a red flag, but get to understand her illness better so that she can get appropriate care.

Speaker 1: 25:53

And you know if we do have providers that listen to us and you know we, I know we have trainees listening to us and I just want to put this out there. You know the motherhood center. If you're a professional and you're looking for more education, you want to be trained by the leading experts in our country. You can go to the motherhood center and Paige has on her beautiful website. I'll add tons of educational links and how to get in contact with the Motherhood Center to learn more. If you're going yes, this is, I'm seeing this in my practice. I'm a pediatrician. Yes, I'm a therapist. Yes, I work in the hospital. I'm an L&D nurse. Like I need to be able to recognize these.

Speaker 1: 26:26

Go to the Motherhood Center's website and they will show you education opportunities. But I think, yes, the internet's fabulous right, because we can. I am in Alabama, you in New York. We are having this great educational conversation, just like true, just meaningful. It's also bad in the sense if you can get bad information out there. So I do wanna say be careful where you're Googling and your friends or family are Googling. Google is not your doctor in these cases.

Speaker 2: 26:53

No, it's not, and I just was reading somewhere in our Instagram feed for the Motherhood Center. And you know, one thing I encourage all moms to do is like if you are struggling, unfollow the people that are making you feel like you're failing right. I'm happy to share with you, sarah, and I'm sure you know a lot of influencers that are talking about the real struggles of messy motherhood and creating spaces and platforms where people can be honest and truthful about how they're feeling, without judgment Although I know it's hard to say that because I feel like judgment is everywhere in social media, but there are some better places to be. But I was just reading this article about how there's this whole new wave now of new and expecting moms diagnosing themselves, because a lot of these diagnostic terms and flow of identifying symptoms when it's not coming from a medical provider or expert is now being internalized right Like oh, I read something about postpartum PTSD. I have that. Right Like we cannot diagnose ourselves. This is why therapists go and get their licenses and psychiatrists do the same, because we thoroughly understand diagnostically what these illnesses look like. So that's another thing I'm seeing.

Speaker 2: 28:07

A lot is that people are kind of they are deciding on their own that they have these conditions. And we can't do that unless we are medically diagnosed with the condition, and then we can start to understand better what types of treatments are going to help us feel better. And, sarah, if your listeners only remember one thing PMADs are totally and completely treatable. We know what to do, we know what works, we know how to get new expecting mothers back to feeling like themselves again and their best selves again. And interventions look different for everyone, right, there's a continuum of acuity. Some people have mild postpartum depression, some people have acute postpartum depression and they need to be hospitalized and inpatient to keep them safe until they can get out and then continue on with support and treatment to help them get back to their baseline. There are so many things that can be done to support and help this population feel better. And look, you and I are living proof, right? We?

Speaker 2: 29:13

were in the darkest, darkest hour and couldn't see a way out. And here we are, we're talking about it, it's behind us and we know that there is so much hope if we can just get women the care they need and deserve to feel better.

Speaker 1: 29:31

I think that's so true.

Speaker 1: 29:32

And you know, I always say and we touched on this the media, they really want to point out to very real tragedies that do happen, but they don't really show us the me and yous right who have overcome, who are using our voice.

Speaker 1: 29:45

So I always say you need that light, you need to see that person on the other side, you need mothers ahead of you all through motherhood not just mental health, I mean, even it is like hey, how do I teach my kid this? Or how did you deal with this when this happened in school. You need those moms who's had these lived experiences to, like you said, the life raft, like to pull you and say let me walk with you, let me tell you what I felt, let me tell you what I did, and it has been a joy for me to know you and hear your platform and see the work. But I want to ask you what I ask all our guests and this does not have to be a mental health page. So this is just like what would Paige now, 17 years out, go back that first pregnancy test? Tell that Paige, what would you say to her about motherhood?

Speaker 2: 30:33

It's such a good question to her about motherhood. It's such a good question, it's such an emotional question just to think about, like you really just in that question brought me back to just the fragility and the vulnerability and the emotional state. And so this is really really me speaking to that person I got you. You're not a bad mom. You haven't done anything wrong. You're doing the best you can. This is so freaking hard and nobody talks about it. You're not alone. You're going to get better.

Speaker 2: 31:09

I promise you you're going to get better and, believe it or not, you're going to love this little person and I'm not going to tell you that it's ever going to be sunshine and roses, because it's not. Motherhood is a journey of both, and there are micro moments of love and joy and there are stretches of what feels like a darkness that's never going to end and you are going to grow in ways that you never thought were imaginable. You are going to experience such a profound love in a way that you never felt was imaginable, and you are going to be loved in a way that you never imagined was possible, and it will forever be a both and but. On one side of that, it's one of the things in your life that you will always, always feel and know was totally and entirely worth it.

Speaker 1: 32:08

Oh, I love that page. I just it's just so good. We need Paige in every state. We need the motherhood in every state. We need everything and it, we need the motherhood in every state. We need everything and it is just truly your story what your work is and tell people, besides the Motherhood Center, where, if they want more Paige and to learn, where would you tell them to go?

Speaker 2: 32:28

So reach out. You know you can. As you mentioned, I do a lot of trainings, not only for providers, on just kind of the basic tenets of maternal mental health, totally free. You can find them on our website, go to our website. But I also do free what we call the myths of motherhood talks for new and expecting mothers. What I've found is when you lead with let's talk about perinatal mood and anxiety disorders with new and expecting moms, they're like, yeah, no, that's not going to happen to me, I don't want to go there and I don't blame them, I wouldn't have gone there either. So when we talk about some of the myths that surround motherhood, right, like breastfeeding is easy and wonderful and all good mothers breastfeed, right I've created a specific talk for new and expecting moms to just kind of get ahead of some of those myths and also raise awareness around maternal mental health.

Speaker 2: 33:24

In the most layman's terms, what does it look like to have perinatal depression and anxiety and what do you do if you're struggling? But to answer your question, you can give us a call and ask for me at the motherhood center, 212-335-0034. You can visit us on our website. We actually have a website for new and expecting moms that's chock full with information about our services events. There's actually a little quiz that you can take if you're a new or expecting mom and want to see if you're struggling potentially with perinatal mood and anxiety disorder. We also have a website specifically for providers where they can refer patients in a HIPAA-protected platform to us and learn all about best practices and research that's cutting edge in this field. Give a call, visit the website. I'm available and I have a really hard time saying no, so please reach out.

Speaker 1: 34:19

Well, I will take advantage of that. You say no and say you're going to come back on the podcast later and we will do another episode because it's needed in this world and I adore you, like I said earlier. But thank you and the work you're doing and I know this has been impactful to everybody who's heard this today.

Speaker 2: 34:39

Sarah, thank you so much. And right back at you, the work that you're doing with Previa is just amazing. You are helping and saving the lives of so many women that need you and I feel so in a sisterhood with you, that we're doing this work together and we're making a real impact. So thank you for having me on.

Speaker 1: 34:56

We appreciate you. Okay, guys, we have had a wonderful episode. Please look in our show notes everything me and Paige hit on.

Speaker 3: 35:17

I'll make sure it's listed because I know where you guys are probably in carpool line. You're listening on your way to work. You're like I don't have a pen and paper. We got you Go to the show notes, but I'll be back with you guys next week, so have a wonderful week, whitney Gay. Each episode focuses on specific issues relevant to pregnancy and postpartum. Join us and hear how other moms have overcome mental health challenges, as well as access tips and suggestions on dealing with your own challenges as moms. You can also browse our podcast library and listen to previous episodes at any time. Please know you're not alone on this journey. We're here to help.