Speaker 1: 0:11

Hey guys, welcome back to Preview Alliance podcast. This is Sarah with you and you guys already know who we're talking to today, but I'm going to give her a short introduction. This is Mallory Whitmore. You know her on Instagram as the Formula Mom. She's now with one of her favorite brands, bobbi, but most importantly, she's a mom and she has lived experience with what you're dealing with and that is our conversation today. So, mallory, welcome.

Speaker 2: 0:34

Thank you so much for having me. I'm so excited to talk with you today.

Speaker 1: 0:38

Thank you. So our listeners who, let's say, they're not on Instagram, maybe they're just getting into this whole mom, you know, I call it the mom universe on social media where we start learning.

Speaker 3: 0:48

You know who?

Speaker 1: 0:48

to follow, who to not, and they're going. Okay, the formula mom, tell me more about her. So give us, like, who you are as a person, as a mom, and kind of what led you to where you're at today.

Speaker 2: 1:01

Yes, absolutely so. I have two I almost said little ones, but they're not quite so little anymore. My oldest is almost eight and my youngest is almost five, so I'm out of the real little baby phase. I had a really tough time postpartum after my first, for a variety of reasons. She was early I had a placenta complication, it took forever for my milk to come in. I had undiagnosed gestational diabetes. The whole thing was a mess and it just was nothing like how I expected. I expected her birth and postpartum to be what a lot of us expect, which is that you're flooded with love and it's the greatest thing ever and you feel like buoyed by all the oxytocin. No, I did not.

Speaker 3: 1:42

I did not have that experience.

Speaker 2: 1:44

It was very medical, it was very, in some ways, traumatic. It was difficult for me, it was difficult for her. I had medical concerns, she had medical concerns for me early, and I just started the motherhood journey being like what do I do now? You know, this isn't the path I thought I would be on. What does this path look like? And so I started looking for resources about, you know, premature babies. And she was 36 weeks, so she was, you know, late preterm, and our feeding journey was a mess.

Speaker 2: 2:15

From the start I thought I would breastfeed. I had gone to the classes, I'd read the books I'm very much a rule follower, very type A, so I was like, oh, this is what I'll do, cause this is, you know, quote, unquote what good parents do. And it just did not work. She would not gain weight, my milk was insufficient. It, you know it got to a point where every time she would cry, I would feel this sense of like cortisol and dread and almost resentment that it was time to feed her again.

Speaker 2: 2:45

And so, around six weeks, we switched to formula and I thought, okay, if I'm going to be formula feeding, then I want to be the best formula feeder that I can be, and so I started looking for resources. You know, are there classes, are there books, are there support groups, are there message boards, are there Instagram pages? And there really was nothing. And I was like that's crazy. And so, between her birth and then, when my son was born, three years later, I was like I'm going to figure out how to do it because I can't, I cannot be the only one who has these questions and wants support and feels bad about using formula. Yeah, so when she was almost four, I launched the Formula Mom platform to be the sort of resource that I desperately needed in those early days postpartum.

Speaker 1: 3:25

And I want to say personally, I found you with my oldest when I was very similarly struggling and I thought, okay, there's someone who's talking about formula and I desperately wanted someone to tell me it was okay to choose formula. And you did that for me and I cause I was the same way. I wanted education right, cause there's tons of education out about breastfeeding. And you did that for me and I cause I was the same way. I wanted education right, cause there's tons of education out about breastfeeding. And I still remember a NICU nurse said to me you know, if you want your baby to live, you have to give them breast milk right now. And I was just like, oh my God, you know like it was just.

Speaker 1: 4:01

And I just remember pumping in the NICU and power pumping and like begging my body to like produce an ounce Right Like and I would just like hand over this and felt like such a failure Right, and it definitely led to my postpartum depression becoming more severe, more severe. So I want to hit on that. You know, because we hear mixed conversations.

Speaker 2: 4:25

We'll say about when it comes to mental health, how we feed our children. Yeah, absolutely. You'll hear from folks self-described lactivists, those in the you know strongly supportive of breastfeeding community that will say everybody should breastfeed, because breastfeeding is protective against postpartum mental health disorders, postpartum depression, postpartum rage, postpartum anxiety, all of that.

Speaker 2: 4:48

But, in talking with thousands of parents. That's just not the lived experience for a lot of people. I think if you want to breastfeed and you have an easy experience breastfeeding and it's successful, of course you're going to have, you know, maybe fewer mental health challenges associated with it. But if you have a really tough time, in my experience and in talking to so many parents, it's like a perfect recipe for mental health challenges, right, because it's constant. You know your baby is eating 12 to 16 times a day.

Speaker 2: 5:23

Those first couple of weeks you have all of the pressure because you're the only one who can do it. You're not getting any consolidated sleep, you're limited in terms of the type of mental health medication that you can have and many of your coping skills or your coping strategies that you might have used pre-birth, like hanging out with friends or exercising or having a glass of wine or two, or going on a trip or taking a nap All that stuff gets thrown up in the air. A lot of it's off the table and there's just yeah, like breastfeeding for me was the central point of all of these other factors that made my mental health really, really hard.

Speaker 2: 6:05

And when I stopped breastfeeding and could address some of those factors. I could get on the medication that my doctor recommended, I could get consolidated sleep, I could be away from my baby for more than two hours so that I could do something that filled my own cup. Everything changed, and so you know, was it the breastfeeding that created my postpartum depression? I don't know, but I can say for certain that switching to formula was a major factor in improving my postpartum depression.

Speaker 1: 6:32

Totally and I struggled a lot and I hear this from moms when you know you want to do formula and then there's this guilt and shame and it can be a prolonged decision, right? So I want to touch on that. What would you speak to our listeners who are like oh, that's me, I've maybe you know family I mean my gosh family from pediatricians that say things inappropriately, like the nurse that said something to me. I mean, you have random people on the street that sometimes are like are you breastfeeding?

Speaker 3: 7:01

Yes, it's wild.

Speaker 1: 7:03

Why are you asking me what I'm doing with my breasts Like that?

Speaker 2: 7:06

is so wild to me.

Speaker 1: 7:08

You know, like I'm just like we are in the produce section and you're asking me this.

Speaker 2: 7:13

Yes, yeah, it is really wild how everybody thinks it's their business when you know it's clearly not.

Speaker 2: 7:19

I think there are a few angles that I take when I talk to parents about this. The first is that when I talk to parents who've made the decision to formula feed, when they get to the end of their journey and I, you know, we'll ask them do you have any regrets? The regret that they'll tell me is that they wish they would have switched to formula sooner, not that they wish they would have not introduced formula, because they get to their baby's first year. And they think I missed so many weeks or so many months where I was stressed, I was disassociated, I was detached, I was anxious, I was depressed, I couldn't connect with my baby, I felt resentful to my baby and I wish that I could have that time back. And so I think so much of the time we only think about breastfeeding in terms of the benefits, without weighing that for some of us it costs a whole lot. We give up a whole lot in order to keep breastfeeding, and when you get to your baby's first year, is that a cost that you're going to be glad that you paid? Essentially, because for a lot of us it's like, oh, I wish I could get that time back. I wish that I didn't wait so long to make the switch because, you know, my experience was so much better. My relationship with my baby was so much better. So that's one piece.

Speaker 2: 8:30

The other thing that I encourage parents to do, especially if they're concerned about developmental outcomes or health outcomes right, we hear a lot about, oh, if you breastfeed, you know your baby is half the risk of getting an ear infection. And then you're like, oh my gosh, of course I don't want to like do my baby to ear infections and then you know they're going to be in pain, it's going to be my fault, like all of this, I always encourage parents to really dig into the research. Emily Oster has a wonderful book called Crib Sheet and there's an entire chapter and they're dedicated to what the high quality research really says about breastfeeding outcomes versus formula feeding outcomes, and it helps to cut through a lot of the noise and you learn things like yes, okay, maybe the risk of ear infections is twice as high if you formula feed, but the risk goes from 2% to 4%. So, yes, twice as high, but there's still a 96% chance your baby's not going to get an ear infection, no matter how you're feeding them and so that additional context can be really helpful. At least it was for me.

Speaker 2: 9:27

Like I said, I'm type A. I thrive more is more in terms of information. For me, that was really helpful for me to just really dig into. What does the research say? Is this actually as big of a deal as my pediatrician or the internet or my mother-in-law might make it out to be?

Speaker 1: 9:41

What do you say to moms, cause you know we went through the formula shortage. Oh, yes, you know, and I heard a lot of people I mean I said it to myself friends oh my gosh, now I can't feed my baby or I'm worried. And you know and this was very unprecedented how this happened. You know, and it put us all in a very hard spot and they're going Mallory. What if that happens again? Or you know that shame I felt. Or you know you were searching and calling every target. You know Walmart what do?

Speaker 2: 10:15

you say to them Because I mean that's, that's, I mean that was a the center of it from a standpoint of getting lots of information from people and lots of questions and whatever, but I am so glad that I didn't have an infant during it and I'm probably more equipped than anyone to figure out.

Speaker 2: 10:33

You know what to use instead or where you can go or how to consider different options and still like that would have been a nightmare. And so I really, really felt for parents during that really acute season where it was really difficult to find. What I encourage parents during that season is that for every decision we make as parents, we use the best decision that we have available at the time. And there was no indication historically or in the months leading up to the shortage, the recall and the shortage, that there was any problem afoot. And so we made the choices that we did to formula feed or to let our milk dry up, or, to, you know, only pump three times a day instead of seven times a day, with the information that we had, and that's the only thing that you can do, and as much as it's easy to sort of beat yourself up about that, I encourage parents, to, you know, give their past selves grace for making the only decision that made sense to make at that point.

Speaker 1: 11:28

Yeah, totally, I remember. You know, what I did see was these it was almost just like the community bonded together and was like what do you need? I got you, I got you, I have extra here. So that to me, I look back on that and I try to remember that as well here. So that to me I look back on that, I try to remember that as well. And and I think there was so and it brought attention to how many parents use formula and I think the CDC saw I read something there was like by six months, 75%. So I think that's something to you think am I the only person using formula? No, you're not.

Speaker 2: 11:59

No, not at all.

Speaker 2: 12:01

And that's what's so wild. You know you've got the great majority of parents that are using formula as it gets closer to one year it gets closer to like 83% have used formula during their baby's infancy. And yet we all feel isolated, we all feel ashamed, we all feel alone, and I think that's largely because no one talks about it. You don't talk about it, and then that perpetuates this idea that it's something that shouldn't be talked about, it's something that is embarrassing or shameful, that I don't want other people to know, and then we're all just in our silos, feeling bad, not realizing that there's a whole community of folks who are going through the same thing, and so that's a big part of my platform as well as just you know, how do we talk about formula in sort of a morally neutral way, like it's just another way to feed our babies.

Speaker 2: 12:42

It doesn't have to say anything about me, it doesn't have to mean anything about me as a parent, it doesn't have to be a, you know, a mark in the love column for my baby. If I breastfeed or not, you know it just, it's just food. It's just food. So that's also been really helpful for me to think about it that way.

Speaker 1: 13:01

No, I totally agree. And I remember, even when we switched to formula, especially with my oldest going and buying it, and I kind of put it in the cart and I kind of like covered it a little bit.

Speaker 1: 13:12

And I was just like you know, and was trucking on my little cart, then get to the checkout and I was kind of like I just want them to check it out and put it in the bag, yeah, and I was like what you know? I look back down and I'm like, oh my gosh, sarah, like what were you doing? But I, I was like I failed, you know, and it was all these things that I had never realized. That was almost like messages were engraved into me from like TV, instagram, older mothers, whoever you know, you are defined if you can feed your baby by breast. You know all this stuff.

Speaker 1: 13:45

And I had to fight through that, and so it was. I tell people. I'm like, listen, I can say this. Even my second we switched very early to formula. He had some allergy issues and reflux and then, honestly, I was suffering with postpartum rage, mm-hmm and reflux. And then, honestly, I was suffering with postpartum rage and I mean, my husband was saying you need to stop and just quit and he was like, if it makes you feel better to really hone in on the allergy thing to comfort you, but he's like I don't understand why you're feeling guilty.

Speaker 1: 14:16

He was like you know, our oldest was fine with it, you know and it did. It was like why am I a second time mom, still doing the same and feeling the same.

Speaker 2: 14:26

Yeah, it's really deeply ingrained, like you said, and it's a message that we get from everywhere, right? You get it from your family, you get it from your friends, you get it from the internet, you get it from strangers in the grocery store, you get it from your OB, you get it from your pediatrician. It's you know. You get it from baby center and their emails. Or you know you sign up for a registry and then you get emails from Medela about breast pumps and like it really is everywhere.

Speaker 2: 14:50

And this is something else I encourage parents is that you know, you learn as you go through parenting that the feeding question is really just the first of a series of decisions that you'll have to make that other people might not agree with about whether you do purees versus baby led weaning, about whether you sleep train, about whether you send a daycare, about whether you use a nanny Like it never ends.

Speaker 2: 15:11

And so, even though it's hard, especially in a vulnerable emotional state, to make that decision, that's a muscle that will serve you well as you go through your parenting journey, muscle that will serve you well as you go through your parenting journey. So this might be the first time that you have to say like I hear what society is telling me to do, but I'm going to make the choice that's best for me, my baby, my family. But that will benefit you so much. You know, having that experience early of saying I can sort of block out the noise, I can prioritize what's best for us, because it won't be the last time, unfortunately, that you'll have to do that and it for me has been really beneficial to get that done early, right To know that I know what's best for my baby, I can make the choice that's right for us.

Speaker 1: 15:53

Well, you have several moms, especially in previa, who's you know. Second time around they say you know what? I've already bought the formula and I'm ready. And if it works, great, breastfeeding great. If it doesn't, I have formula. And we always to encourage, say, listen, have formula at the house because there has been incidences where, god forbid, something happens with mom, she needs to go back to the hospital, her milk dries up, the family's left with the baby and you've never learned about formula, know how to make a formula bottle, have those kinds of discussions for an emergency situation. So we always say you need that backup.

Speaker 2: 16:33

Absolutely, Absolutely. It is so much better to have it and not use it than need it and not have it. And for some reason, formula gets treated, I think, about it a lot like abstinence-only sexual education, where there's this idea of like, oh, if you, you know, if you keep the formula in your house, then you're going to be tempted to use it. You know, just like sometimes we think like, oh, if condoms are available, people are going to have, you know, be crazy and reckless. No, we know that the outcomes happen. That happen 75% are going to use formula by six months. We need to equip people to do it safely, to know what they're doing while they're doing it, to make sure that they're making an informed choice, that they're making the choice they want to make while they have a clear mind. And it's not 10 PM and you're standing crying in the aisle at Kruger, which is you know what, my experience was We've been there, yes, and so you know what my experience was We've been there, yes.

Speaker 2: 17:20

And so you know, if you don't use it, donate it to a friend. You know, after the first year, if it's still within the you know expiration window. But yeah, it's. You don't want to be in a situation where you don't have it, where you have to make sort of a snap judgment about what type of formula you're using, where you're risking that it might, your baby might, not tolerate it and you don't know what else you might be able to use. Absolutely, I always encourage parents to do at least a little bit of research before their baby is born, while you still have some brain cells that are sort of functioning, to just you are so right.

Speaker 1: 17:53

What would you say now? So say she's pregnant, she's listening, yeah, it's like. So tell me, what should I be knowing right now, before the baby comes? What is your kind of go-to like? Hey, where can she learn more?

Speaker 2: 18:05

How can she make these decisions Absolutely Obviously. I'm going to say come follow me over on the Formula, Mom, because we talk all day, every day about this stuff. I think a few key things for prospective or expecting parents to know. First, all formulas are good formulas in the sense that they all contain the same general nutrition. The FDA requires it. So you're going to get the same amount of carbohydrates, the same amount of vitamin A, the same amount of fat, the same type of fatty acids, no matter what formula you use, Whether it's the most expensive one or the least expensive one. But you can't make a bad choice. In that sense, All formulas are going to promote healthy growth and development for your infants.

Speaker 2: 18:42

In that sense you can also kind of ignore a lot of the marketing noise.

Speaker 2: 18:47

You know you go in the aisle, there's a bunch of different choices and it's like promotes brain development, strong bones, healthy immune system, and you're like, oh my gosh, of course I want that for all of my babies. I always tell kids ignore all of that, ignore all of that. What parents really want to pay attention to is the ingredients list. So the nutrition facts are roughly the same across products, but the ingredients that different formulas use to source those nutrients can be really variable. So you can get protein from skim milk, from whole milk, from goat's milk, from soybeans. You can get fat from milk fat or palm oil or coconut oil. You can get carbohydrates from lactose or corn syrup. That's really where all those differences come in, and so I always encourage parents focus there and then just think through what's important to you as a parent. You know when you're pregnant you have no way of knowing what your baby's preferences or needs are going to be, so that's another variable, but you can't address that yet.

Speaker 2: 19:39

So really think about. You know what are my cost parameters, what is important to me in terms of availability? Do I want something I can pick up on the shelf? Do I want something that I can sort of set and forget and it'll come to my door every three weeks or every month? Are there religious or cultural preferences in terms of ingredients that I want to avoid? Are there, you know, quality indicators? Is it organic important to me or non-GMO? Or you know antibiotic free? To just really think about, if I was going to use a formula, what's important to me as a parent, and then that can help you narrow down that list.

Speaker 1: 20:12

I wish I would have. I honestly wish I would have, because when I was searching I was in the depths of postpartum depression. I was not sleeping, exactly what you said. I remember staring at them and going brain development, of course.

Speaker 2: 20:26

I want that. I'm just like, is that?

Speaker 1: 20:28

just one, not to brain development.

Speaker 3: 20:32

You know, like all of it, like you're, just you're so right.

Speaker 1: 20:35

You know the marketing just gets you and it's right or wrong, I tell people you have to realize pregnancy and postpartum is one of the most expensive markets out there and you are having tons and tons of brands throwing money at you to get to you. So you have to know it's. It's almost like a you know a landfill of what you have to navigate, navigate.

Speaker 2: 21:02

It really is. I swear those first couple of months when I was deep, especially deep, in my postpartum depression, I swear Amazon was at our house every day.

Speaker 2: 21:10

Every day I was like if there was something that could promise me an easier time, a happier baby, more sleep. I was like here's my money and, looking back, you know, I don't know that any of it really worked and none of it offered the actual support that I needed, which is, you know, which was, you know, the mental health support. It was a poor excuse, sort of, for a little, almost like a bandaid, but yeah, it's hard to wade through. When you're vulnerable and you're emotional and you're recovering from, you know, a major medical event.

Speaker 1: 21:41

It's hard to wait through, and I think another thing to touch on that I wasn't prepared for was sometimes the transition to formula is not super easy, or in case it wasn't for me, and then I know that both my boys had, like their little GI systems, had to get used to it and that really upset me both times. To be a hundred percent real and honest, you know.

Speaker 2: 22:05

And then the shame and guilt came back again, you know because it feels like you know you've made a choice and you're putting them through something that you know that they might not have chosen. You know if they could express themselves. Yeah, that's a very common experience and, generally speaking, unless somebody has told you, a lot of parents don't know to expect that there will be a one to two week period. And it doesn't mean that your baby doesn't tolerate the formula. It doesn't mean you're doing anything wrong.

Speaker 1: 22:30

It doesn't mean that there's an allergy.

Speaker 2: 22:33

It's just, you know your baby has a brand new, immature digestive system and you're introducing new ingredients Like as adults, we eat 25 different ingredients a day and our digestive systems are really efficient. But for a baby, when they've had one thing and you're introducing another thing, it just takes some time to adjust. And so I always encourage parents you have to give it at least, you know, 10 days, and it can be so painful, I know it can be so painful, but often what happens is you know, by day three parents are like I can't do this anymore and then they switch to something else and then it just continues the process. It makes the whole thing longer. So, yeah, if you're listening and you're like thinking about formula, just know you know, seven to 10 days, up to two weeks, you might see an increase in reflux and increase in gas or fuss, changes in stool color or texture, and that's all very normal and it tends to resolve and, you know, go back to either what was a status quo or a new status quo after that transition period.

Speaker 1: 23:30

But yeah, the only way out is through unfortunately, what I need is and I think it's so important that we say that because you do, especially when you're struggling with your mental health it's just you got to buckle up a little bit, and I think it's important to educate those around you too, because I mean, I had some words like, well, he's not tolerating it and you know, do you want to try pumping some more? Maybe it's not dried up fully yet. You know all those kinds of I'm just like I don't need that. I don't need to hear this right now, because I don't think anybody realized how hard it was for me to say I'm switching, like it took me a long time.

Speaker 2: 24:09

Yeah, and then, yeah, what you need is encouragement at that moment, not, you know, folks prodding you to second guess if you made the right choice. I remember having a conversation with my husband when my first was just a couple of weeks old and I was going back and forth about you know, do we switch formula, do we not? And he, in his, you know, from a place of really positive intent, was like, well, maybe you could just keep pumping a little bit. And I remember thinking that if I felt like I was on fire and I was asking for somebody to, you know, do the fire extinguisher, or you know, throw a bucket of water on me, and instead everybody was like, well, can't you just burn a little while longer? And I and I was like, no, I can't, I cannot somebody give me the fire extinguisher.

Speaker 2: 24:57

And that's that's hard to express to people. Sometimes, you know, if you're not in the thick of it, it feels like, well, it can't be that hard. To, you know, sit for 20 minutes and just like, do the pumping. But it really can, it really can be that hard. And so I agree with you letting the people in your life know that this is a choice you've made, that you need their support, that these are the things that your baby might experience, and even if your baby experiences those, you still need their support. You know, trying to get ahead of that, I think, is a very wise idea.

Speaker 1: 25:28

It was just something. Again, if I could go back, I would say this to myself, but I would love to hear more. You know, I love that you're open about the postpartum depression and your mental health, because it is the most common complication of pregnancy and childbirth. Yet we call it the silent killer of motherhood, because, unless we're having conversations like this, we don't know that. You know, so what was some of the signs or how you felt that you're like okay, this is maybe not how it's supposed to be.

Speaker 2: 26:00

That's supposed to be yeah. Yeah, it's so interesting because I think before I had my first, I assumed postpartum depression looked like sadness, and I think for some people it might. But for me it didn't manifest so much a sadness as it did just like a blankness, like I felt nothing. I felt like a shell of myself. I felt sort of dissociated, like I was watching myself go through the motions. I felt very hopeless about anything getting better, about feeling like myself again. I felt like I had made a massive mistake having that baby, like I had ruined my life and, frankly, that I had ruined her life too and that sort of what was the point? If you know I had already ruined her life. Like how was I, how was I supposed to be a mother when I already failed it at day three? You?

Speaker 2: 26:56

know, yeah, I, I felt, yeah, I think the the best description was just sort of like a shell, like she had been delivered. And they up ask me, do you feel like you might harm yourself or or your baby? Because I know that that could not have been easy for her and she was eight and a half months pregnant at the time. We were pregnant at the same time, yeah. And so I just appreciated that and I was able to say at the time no, I, I don't think that. And then, about six weeks postpartum, my husband came home and he was like you know, I've started to worry when I'm pulling into the driveway that you and this baby aren't going to be here.

Speaker 3: 27:48

And I don't know what.

Speaker 2: 27:49

I think might have happened. I don't want to think what might have happened, but I'm just starting to wonder if that's a possibility. And I remember feeling at the time, not necessarily like I didn't want to be there or I didn't want my baby to be there, but I remember feeling like if something had happened to her that I would have felt relieved, instead of, you know, having felt, you know, appropriate emotions like grief or distress, and I was like, okay, this is, this is a problem. And you know, looking back, it's so easy to be like, oh my gosh, of course that's a problem, but at the time I felt like those feelings were justified. In a way. I was like, well, I'm not sleeping, of course I feel terrible, my baby's colicky, of course I feel terrible, I can't exercise, I can't go to work, I have no structure, I can't see my friends. Of course you know this must be normal, because all those things are normal. And so, yeah, having both my sister and my husband sort of have those intervention moments with me about like you're really not okay, and then you know, also being able to realize that like I didn't want to feel like this either. I didn't know necessarily or believe at the time that it was possible to not feel like that. I was really deep in it. But I knew that I didn't necessarily want to feel like that.

Speaker 2: 29:07

And then, you know, also have to give credit to both my daughter's pediatrician and then my PCP. So after that conversation with, my husband went to the pediatrician and basically was like you know, if I start taking medication for postpartum depression, is it okay if it transfers to my breast milk? And she said, mallory, do you feel like your decision to keep trying to nurse and pump is contributing to your need for medication? And I said yes, and she was like you need to stop pumping.

Speaker 2: 29:35

And to hear that from my pediatrician who you know, I know is really there for the health of my baby, not me yeah, for her to say, for your baby's health, you need to stop pumping because your health impacts your baby's health. And then you know my PCP as well, who got me set up with a psychiatrist and all of that. But I look back and I think about you know what would have happened if I didn't have those people in my life to sort of like steer me toward the right outcome, because it was really bad it was, it was really hard and it was scary. And I look back and I'm like yikes, like that was a really, really dark period, yeah, and it makes me, it makes me concerned for other, for other moms who who may not have the people in their life that can sort of shepherd them into help when they need it no-transcript.

Speaker 1: 30:47

The field like I am and talk to them every day, it's more about one in three.

Speaker 2: 30:51

That would be my guess, just based on the people that I talk to day in and day out?

Speaker 1: 30:56

Yeah, absolutely One in three. And you know I tell moms all the time listen, I want you to look at it this way your mental health is more important than breastfeeding.

Speaker 3: 31:07

It is Amen.

Speaker 2: 31:09

Any day I will say that.

Speaker 1: 31:11

I'll say, for you to be the best mom, you, mentally and physically. And I said, but honestly, it's mental, it really is, and to your point of like, you know, I did the same thing. I thought, well, when I start sleeping and I, you know, or when I can do this, and it kept getting worse and that, and that is something that we're a not comfortable talking about a mom being hopeless and sad and depressed or suicidal. We're not comfortable with that in our society and we're trying to be because it's like she needs, it's an everybody issue, because it's not on Mallory to reach out in those, you know, in your despair. I didn't have the capacity at that point. No, it is your support system which they did what they should do to say you know what's to be expected versus not. That's what we always say. It's like what?

Speaker 1: 32:00

you know, and to your point, postpartum depression presents so differently for everybody, postpartum anxiety is so different. You know rage, people don't talk about rage. We really try to say listen, don't just think it's X, y and Z.

Speaker 3: 32:14

No, If you think you know, whatever it is.

Speaker 1: 32:16

X, y and Z. No, if you think you know, whatever it is, I mean I was convinced I had extreme anxiety too with my depression. So people are like, well, what do you mean? You have both. And I'm like, yes, I have both. I'm like I won the lottery. Apparently, I got you know both and. But they all cycle in and I had never experienced a mental health condition before in my life. I'm type A, you know as well, and I love good. I'm rigid at times, I love my research, but I had never been depressed. I you know my C-section caused me to have PTSD. I had trauma from that and I'd never experienced a trauma like that in my life. And all I kept hearing I'm sure you heard too was, oh, but you and them are good now. The baby's healthy.

Speaker 2: 32:59

You're healthy, yep, and I think that's a factor that makes postpartum depression or anxiety or rage different than you know. I don't want to say you're run of the mill depression, because there's no such thing, but you know, not only are you having these symptoms, but then you also have the added pressure that not only should you not be feeling that way, you should be feeling the opposite. Yeah, because you have a healthy baby. What is there to be sad about? You know, some people don't get that, some people don't end up, you know, with the ability to bear children again or to have a healthy outcome, and so, yeah, you have the added stress and shame on top that you're not grateful, and then that makes it worse. And I do want to caveat here too. I know I shared about my experience. Something I tell parents all the time is there's no standard of how quote bad it has to be for you to switch to formula, for you to get help, for you to do what you need to do. Do not wait until you are like in as bad of a you know a space that I was, where people were like are you going to hurt yourself? Like you don't. There's no bar. You have to meet before you're allowed to switch to formula or you're allowed to start medication or you're allowed to take a break from your baby.

Speaker 2: 34:14

Something that I'm also open with now, that I was really embarrassed about for a long time, is when our daughter was five weeks old. My husband took me to the beach for two days. We left her with my mother-in-law and that was really. I didn't bring the pump. That was really when I stopped and I was like what kind of terrible mother leaves their five week old baby for two days?

Speaker 2: 34:36

But at the time my husband again he knew he was like I've got to do something to remind Mallory that she is a person outside of this baby and that she could feel just a hint of you know that her life could still be like it was in some way. Oh, and I hid that for years because I felt so ashamed and so embarrassed. But again, you know, don't wait until you get to that point. It doesn't have to be a certain level of bad before you take a break or take a trip, even if it's just going to get your nails done. It doesn't have to be a trip to the beach. You know it's worth doing before you get to that really desperate place, and you don't need an excuse other than wanting to feel better, wanting to be better, wanting to feel more like yourself.

Speaker 1: 35:21

I love that and that's such valid because I do think the media plays a part of this and people I feel too, who share. Frequently we have hit pretty rock bottom and things and we say this and the whole point of this is to say I wish someone would have stopped me very early and said Sarah, you're not, are you okay? And me being like I had no idea. As a I mean, I'm a nurse, my husband's a physician we had no clue what postpartum depression was.

Speaker 2: 35:48

No one told me anything.

Speaker 1: 35:50

No one told me anything you know, and we didn't know the signs and symptoms. We didn't know it was the most common. So I looked back, I didn't know the risk factors. I had so many risk factors and I, you know, no one told me this. And then so, the more I've dove into this, I felt like how did I not have postpartum depression? That's kind of how I look at it, which is you know. So I do say this to people like have this conversation, like you know, like we talked about the formula and how you're going to feed your baby.

Speaker 1: 36:19

Get prepared but get prepared for your mental health? Like, no like. How are you going to get sleep?

Speaker 2: 36:23

How are you?

Speaker 1: 36:23

going to have hard conversations. Who's your hard conversation person?

Speaker 2: 36:27

Yeah, who can have those conversations for you if you can't have them for yourself? Absolutely, and I am really blessed and lucky. I did not have any sort of postpartum depression or mood disorder with my second and so much of that, I think, is just luck and the grace of God, I don't know. But also I was really particular about how I prepared for my mental health and that meant starting formula from day one. That meant staying on my medication through my pregnancy and into postpartum, with a plan to increase it if X, y or Z happened like really early signs. We knew from the start that we were splitting night shifts, my husband and I, so that we each could get five hours of consolidated sleep guaranteed per night. I maintained my relationship with my therapist through pregnancy and postpartum.

Speaker 2: 37:16

We didn't allow visitors in the hospital, like it was a huge list, and I can't tell you that if you do.

Speaker 2: 37:22

X, y or Z, you won't experience postpartum depression. But I can tell you that those things set me up for a higher likelihood to not experience it again. I know so much of it is hormonal, so much of it is, you know, trauma. There's a lot that you can't control, but other things that you can control. Think through them, figure out what your plan is, figure out you know how to set yourself up with the best chance, and it can help.

Speaker 1: 37:48

It can help. No, that is such good advice and we say that. I mean we have one of our advisors, a reproductive psychiatrist, and that's what she tells. I mean she basically gives that same rundown and you know, and we talk about sleep, consecutive sleep, and how vital that is and vital and the impact. I mean it's like it's used for torture. You know, sleep deprivation is used for torture and that is for a reason and you have for the first time in a lot of people's lives that is the first time when they have this little baby who won't sleep, who's screaming that you experience that level of sleep deprivation and how that really triggers. I express that everybody. I'm like you have to get a stretch sleep night.

Speaker 2: 38:34

Yes, absolutely, and you know, no matter what that looks like I mean, you can be pumping and and still try to, you know, figure it out but truly, for me at least, getting enough sleep gave me the margin to deal and cope more successfully with all the other stuff. When I didn't have the sleep, it was like my margin, my ability to cope with everything else was basically non-existent. The sleep didn't fix all of that, but it gave me just enough margin, energy, whatever you want to call it to attempt to navigate the other stuff. And so, yeah, it's a wild ride those first weeks and months when you're not sleeping. It's a wild ride those first weeks and months when you're not sleeping.

Speaker 2: 39:22

I remember thinking too that, you know, before you have a baby and, granted, no one sleeps super well toward the end of pregnancy but you really, you know, you really only live like 12, 16 hours a day when you have a baby. You are fully living 24 hours a day, seven weeks, for weeks, for months, and that's just like that's not a stamina anybody can sustain being on duty, having your mind at high alert, especially too, because you're not just awake, you're also caring for this infant that's relying on you solely for their survival. You can't be on high alert for four months and expect to have appropriate mental health. You know that downtime that occurs in sleep, where your brain can, you know, take a step back from being so escalated, is really important, and a lot of a lot of women just don't get it and it makes it so much worse not getting that sleep.

Speaker 1: 40:17

I mean I remember it turning to dark and I would get depressed, I would be like I did not want night to come Like I would.

Speaker 1: 40:26

Just it would be so like physical and overwhelming, and I then it would just be, and because I'm like what is the night going to be? How many times is he going to wake up? And like anxiety of even like trying to sleep and like what was he going to like? When is he going to? Like that really messed with me. And then, when it was like 4.30, 5 am in the morning and like it was and I was like I made it.

Speaker 1: 40:51

And I never told that anybody really. But and then and my husband, I don't think, got it, but I was like I physically truly felt it when then, because it was groundhog day, and I was like I have to do this again and again and I don't know, ever know, when my nights are going to get back to normal.

Speaker 2: 41:07

No, no, yeah, it was so tough for me and choosing to split the nights and we would split in a different room so we put up a little like air mattress in our baby's nursery and then one of we would split in a different room. So we put up a little like air mattress in our baby's nursery and then one of us would be in there, one of us would be in the master, because I was like, even if my husband's on duty, if I'm in the room, I'm going to wake up If she's awake.

Speaker 3: 41:26

I'm going to hear her noises.

Speaker 2: 41:27

I'm going to wonder if she's breathing and being able to look forward to those five hours of consolidated sleep.

Speaker 2: 41:34

You know we split it was like 10, 10 PM to 3 AM and then 3 AM to 8 AM were the two shifts. Knowing that I had that and I could like hang my hat on that versus the anxiety of like what is this night going to look like? Cause I'm like okay, even if my five hours are a total mess and they often work, because babies, you know, don't sleep. I knew that I could do that because I had some sleep coming, or vice versa, you know, don't sleep. I knew that I could do that because I had some sleep coming, or vice versa, you know, depending on what shit I had. So I encourage that if you have the room to do it, if you have a willing partner, if you're using formula or you're using bottles, and you don't have to be present, for you know four or five hours at a time, do it. It's not forever. It doesn't mean you and your spouse are never going to be in the same bed again. You know, whatever, for us it was crucial.

Speaker 1: 42:18

No, I love that. And I think that leads into I asked all our guests this, and this does not have to be what you know, the same subject we've talked about just. But what would Mallory now go back and tell yourself when you got that first pregnancy test and saying, okay, what, what would you tell her about what's to come? And we've had all sorts of answers. There's no bad wrong here?

Speaker 2: 42:39

Just what does she need?

Speaker 1: 42:41

What does she need to hear? You know, I have never really thought about this.

Speaker 2: 42:45

I think a lot about, like, the things that would have been helpful for me the resources and stuff but in terms of what I would have told that Mallory oh gosh. I think I would have told myself to trust myself and to listen to what you need. Like, I think, if I would have gone back and really listened, I never even really wanted to breastfeed. I felt like I had to. I felt like I should, I felt like it was the right thing to do. I knew, basically immediately when I started pumping that I didn't want to do it, but I felt like I had to. I felt the pressure, yeah, and you know, I don't know if 2016 Mallory would have listened to that advice Probably not. But that's what I wish that I could tell her that, like, you know what you need, you know that you need sleep and you're not getting it.

Speaker 2: 43:34

You know that you need to have a break sometimes and you're not getting it. You know that you need to have a break sometimes and you're not getting it. You know that this pumping isn't working for you, but you're still doing it. You know, listen to yourself and honor your needs, because your needs are as important as that baby's needs. That's what she needed to hear.

Speaker 1: 43:50

I love that and I hope every mom that's listening to mom to be takes that from Mallory, and I appreciate you, mallory. You're. You are helping so many parents and thank you for being so honest and vulnerable, and I think it's really important, too, to see moms on the other side of it. So if you're in that depression you see us on the other side. We can talk about it, we can share, we're okay, our kids are okay.

Speaker 2: 44:15

Yes, we feel like ourselves. You know, we love these kids. They bring us joy.

Speaker 1: 44:17

We're okay, our kids are okay.

Speaker 2: 44:18

Yes, we feel like ourselves. We're. You know, we love these kids. They bring us joy. We're happy, absolutely. There is, there is life on the other side. It's hard, it's hard getting there. It's it's hard fought. It's hard one for some of us, but it's worth the fight, absolutely.

Speaker 1: 44:31

So I hope this has been really encouraging to you guys and we will link I know a lot of you guys are probably listening to this you're driving, doing carpool, all the things, so we will link everything how to find Mallory in the podcast notes and follow her on Instagram and you guys will be all set. Mallory, I thank you again for your time. Oh, thank you so much.

Speaker 3: 45:07

I really appreciate the opportunity to share with you. All right guys. We'll be back next week, thank you. Licensed clinical social worker, whitney Gay. Each episode focus on specific issues relevant to pregnancy and postpartum. Join us and hear how other moms have overcome mental health challenges, as well as access tips and suggestions on dealing with your own challenges as moms. You can also browse our podcast library and listen to previous episodes at any time. Please know you're not alone on this journey. We're here to help.