Speaker 1: 0:10

Hey guys, welcome back to Preview Alliance podcast. This is Sarah. I'm here with you today and we have a very special guest, dr Nikki Scott, and you may know her from her book, which is essentially Mama, let's Talk About which, we're going to talk about it, so I am so excited to introduce you to her and let's just normalize what we go through. So welcome Nikki, how are you today?

Speaker 2: 0:33

Thank you so much, I'm good, thank you. There's actually a really bad thunderstorm going on upstairs, oh good.

Speaker 1: 0:41

Well, I live in Alabama so I am totally familiar with these wild thunderstorms, tornado situations.

Speaker 2: 0:51

Yeah, no that's. It's scary, but my my toddlers are upstairs with my dad right now, so they're building a fort and they're protected.

Speaker 1: 0:58

So you know it's mom life right. Like you, you do the thing. So give us so we know your kids are there. So give us a little bit more about you and kind of what put you in this space of, like, talking about motherhood.

Speaker 2: 1:12

Yeah, no good question, I don't know where I begin. So I got pregnant during COVID. Like right at the height of COVID, like March 2020, we found out we were pregnant and it was like okay, like my symptoms were like normal symptoms and everything. And then towards the end of 2020. So I thought I was going to be due at the end of December, I started showing signs of preeclampsia. I also contracted COVID at the same time, which I write about in my book. So doctors wouldn't see me anymore and my sister's an NP and she was like the symptoms you're showing aren't like not okay. So I went to the hospital once with COVID and they're like you're okay, baby's okay, keep monitoring, but no one would like see me regularly. So I didn't hear his heartbeat. I didn't see him on the ultrasound.

Speaker 2: 1:56

I was still working. I was a hospice social worker for almost 11 years. The last few years I transitioned over as a grief counselor. So it was like navigating work. I was finishing my doctorate at the time, being pregnant and then showing these signs of preeclampsia. So eventually I went in because they're like you know, your blood pressure is too high, so you got to go in. They wouldn't let my husband in with me because I was still testing positive for COVID, even though we had done the. We were just staying away from people for like a month for COVID. Even though we had done the. We were just staying away from people for like a month, isolating ourselves. So I went in, I tested positive for the preeclampsia. I finally tested negative for COVID.

Speaker 2: 2:32

So they let my husband come in and they induced me right away and the birth was traumatic because the epidural didn't work. Twice it didn't work and then by the time I'm like you know, I need something more than that. They're like it's too late, we have to push. They had to vacuum Liam, my oldest, out because his heart rate was dropping. So it was very traumatic and I didn't know what we were having. We were surprised and we thought it was going to be that one of those special things. Like you're surprised and it's exciting. But I'm like getting sewn up and my baby's the cord was wrapped around his neck and they're like I'm like what did I have? Like what kind of baby? They're like it's a boy. I'm like great, so for my second kid, everyone's like oh, it'd be surprising. I'm like no, it was very traumatic. We're not like I want to know right away. So the magic of that was taken away. So a lot of grief involved in that, which is kind of ironic because I am a grief counselor and I write about it in my book a little bit. But I feel like the parallels, I feel like grief touches every aspect of being a human in general, but I feel like a lot of it intersects with motherhood a lot. So I had Liam.

Speaker 2: 3:32

I definitely had postpartum anxiety. It was again still the height of COVID, the height of political turmoil. It was by then. So he was born December 16th and then you know, january 2021 and everything that happened, and so that caused me more anxiety. I suffered for a long time. I wasn't eating, he was like everything to me. So it wasn't depression, cause I knew the difference, it was the anxiety. So I suffered for about five months before I went to the doctor and I'm like I'm suffering, I can't implement the coping tools, I know, cause I'm a therapist, so I need help. So she put me on Lexapro and I stayed on Lexapro all the way through my second pregnancy, because we got pregnant, I think 10 months later, because they're 18 months apart. And then I weaned myself off the Lexapro, because I'm like my coping skills are good. I can implement the coping skills I know and I teach my clients. So around that time too, I was still a grief counselor at the hospice agency. And after I had my second, I'm like I want to be with them as much as possible, because these years are short and they go by so fast. So I was like I'm going to open my own private practice.

Speaker 2: 4:34

And after my second, brody, was born, I was like I want to write a book too to support moms. I always wanted to be an author and a writer and I'm like no better way than to support others in the way I wished I had been supported postpartum, especially during a pandemic. So I started writing the book when Brody was born my second and I kind of just it was very healing for me. So I tell a lot of my clients writing and journaling and sometimes I get the eye rolls because it is a lot of hard work and you're putting it out there and it's also healing. It was very therapeutic to write my story and edit it and rewrite it and then validate others and talk to, because I use like talk to the reader a lot, like, hey, mama, like what you're going through is normal and OK. I wish someone would have talked to me. So I like to say it's therapy in a book.

Speaker 2: 5:21

Since I am a therapist, I left hospice, I opened my own private practice. I'm like I need like I was teaching contingently at some universities and I'm like I want to keep teaching to social work, grief, grief counseling. So I'm a full time professor at Oakland University which is so flexible to be with my boys Summer's off, kind of like picking my schedule. So I mostly have counseling clients on Wednesdays with my boys every other day and then teaching in between. So it's been really nice, the best decision for me and my family. And then writing the book on top of it was super healing too. It's funny what the universe brings back to you, because I am trained in grief counseling and that's what I am and half of my clients now are maternal mental health clients. So either postpartum struggling with fertility, miscarriage and loss, or just like moms who want, like moms of toddlers who want like that support too. So it's been really cool to have both of those and the intersection between them as well. So that's kind of where I am.

Speaker 1: 6:21

So that's kind of where I am. I you know the COVID, pregnancy, mamas having a toddler I mean I think you can probably just even say like, from whatever stage you were in motherhood trying to pregnant, to baby, to, you know, school age, whatever, navigating that, the after effects, I tell people of COVID on motherhood. We're still feeling it and I think we're reeling from it and we all have these stories and you know it really stuck out to me with yours is just, you know the isolation on top of you know everybody was isolated, right, but here you are trying to say something's wrong and literally they're saying they wouldn't see you and then taking your husband out of the picture. Your support your person, right, because it's scary. I'm a nurse by training but it's still scary when you're the patient and you want someone there to hear things to, to advocate, to just be your comfort, and you know. So on top, that's like.

Speaker 1: 7:22

I love that we are talking about this because the loss of how it should be is grief. Yes, so from start to finish your story, there's so much grief in it, right Of just, and you're a grief counselor and just through my own experience with traumatic births I know now that's loss and grief that we have to talk about it because people term grief as like someone passing away, right? So I think that is really critical for our listeners to kind of understand is we all have, like you said, this bliss got stolen away and I've said that before with my miscarriage experience. You in your head, you have it that it's going to go X, y and Z. It's going to turn out this way, and for a lot of people it doesn't, and we have to learn how to process that.

Speaker 2: 8:08

Yes, exactly, and to have a safe space too, because a lot of people can't sit with discomfort. I mean, it's like the narratives in our society and like people just not being able to sit with grief or understanding. Grief touches every aspect of your life, basically Right, and people want to offer solutions, and a lot of them from my like, empathy and compassion standpoint. I know people most people are well intended and have good intentions and trying to offer solutions or tell you what to do, and they need to realize, like that people just want to be seen and heard and validated. Like, hey, I'm struggling right now. And people are like, well, at least you have this or at least you've got that. Well, no, hey, I'm struggling right now.

Speaker 2: 8:45

And people are like well, at least you have this or at least you've got that. Well, no, like can you just say like yeah, I see you, you're having a hard time. Like, can I, you know, bring you a coffee or you know, whatever it is? Like that's another thing too is that people are well intentioned when they're like let me, I'm good, we're, you know what I mean. So like, say like hey, you know, friend, I haven't heard from you in five days. I'm going to swing by and bring a coffee If you don't want me to come in and see the baby that's fine, I'll just leave it on the porch hard.

Speaker 1: 9:23

And two, I always, when people are like, let me know what you need, I'm always like sometimes I don't know what I need. Or, and it's more mental load of like, well, I don't know what I need, or you know I need to, I feel like I want to run away for you know for a minute and be me. And how do you do that for me, Right? Or how do I say that to you without judgment, or so I think that's such a I love that you're teaching that, because I think it is again, people have really well intentions, but that kind of just blanket statement of let me know, it's like, yeah, I don't even know. So that I love. What else do you teach your students? Now I'm intrigued of. What else can we learn from you? Let's put on the professor hat.

Speaker 2: 10:09

It's because I'm like teaching social work classes and I feel like there's like so many life lessons like involved. So I taught human behavior in the social environment, which is like looking at humans across the lifespan and applying theory, and I feel like a lot of it is like doing this internal healing work too. So, specifically, my master's students were like we did not feel or we didn't realize we were going to get so much healing work too. So, specifically, my master's students were like we did not feel or we didn't realize we were going to get so much healing work through this right, because like you start from infancy and childhood and you look at your own like childhood attachments and like how you were parented Some of them in a master's program, especially our parents themselves so they're like, oh, I don't want to parent this way and it's like a lot of this internal work that they don't realize is important.

Speaker 2: 10:45

I feel like any helping profession, you need to do this like internal work before you can go help others, because how are you going to meet someone where they are if you can't even meet yourself? So it's fun. It's like it was kind of cool that like, yeah, I'm teaching theory and like understanding humans across the lifespan, and we're like also doing our own internal work, so that was pretty cool to do, too, with my students.

Speaker 1: 11:07

I love that. I love that.

Speaker 3: 11:09

And then you know, sitting with discomfort.

Speaker 1: 11:12

Let's talk about that for a second, because I think it goes back to society saying that motherhood is supposed to be magical. We're supposed to instantly get it right. We're supposed to instantly get it right. We're supposed to not have a loss of identity. We're not supposed to complain. We're not supposed to have conflicting emotions of we love them with all our soul. But this is the hardest thing we've ever done right. So how do moms I love that you talk about this more in your book but like, how do we get past that societal narrative that's like you're ungrateful or let's not complain, or, but it's just sharing, like I just want to say how I feel.

Speaker 2: 11:52

Yes, that's such a good question. I actually talked to one of my friends about this the other day and I just texted her just this one sentence and she's like, oh my gosh, you're right, I need to remember this is both things can be true, like both things, or multiple things can be true. So many people call it different things. In dialectical behavioral therapy they call it like the duality of like holding two feelings at the same time. So, like you said, I love my kids so much and so it's and and this is the hardest thing I've ever done so a lot of in our heads to we say but. So when we say but, we're invalidating ourselves. So saying and is like validating, like what you're experiencing is real and true, and like putting what society is saying like on the back burner, so like you're showing yourself compassion and like rejecting what they're saying too. It's hard work. It is so hard Like my friends are struggling. I still struggle with it, remembering to put the and instead of the, but they can exist together. So I want time for myself. I want to just go get my nails done, and when I get there, I miss the heck out of my kids because I spend a whole day with them. So realizing both things can be true has been so healing for me and a lot of my clients. So like realizing both things can be true is has been so healing for me and a lot of my clients. It's really cool to see them say like hey, I've been practicing and instead of, but like realizing both things can be true has been really healing and a lot of it with that too is like the self compassion, right.

Speaker 2: 13:19

So like a lot of the times when you hear these narratives from society, like you're saying, like you're acting really ungrateful, is not attaching to that thought and then turning the compassion onto yourself, like you know they don't know me, or like talking to yourself. I guess is another kind of coping skill that I've learned is the positive self-talk. So like they don't know my situation and I'm learning maybe they're not a safe space to like if I was venting to you know a neighbor or something and she's like super invalidating that they don't know my story. I'm doing the best I can with what I have. A lot of it is that like positive self-talk, which again is really hard. It's a practice, but when you practice things it becomes part of you, right? Like, you master it eventually. So practice really helps a lot of the things that people it's like it's funny because it's simple but they work right, like positive self-talk saying and instead of but deep breaths really those like it's simple but they actually work. So going back to the basics is really important.

Speaker 1: 14:17

I love that basics and I think we overcomplicate things in society and I think it is sometimes we have to go back. I always say go to your gut and people's like I don't even know what my gut is anymore, right, and I think there's so much noise and so like sensory overload in motherhood. I don't think people talk about that Sometimes when you know, I remember growing up hearing either my grandma or my mom say I can't hear myself think and I thought what?

Speaker 3: 14:44

do you mean?

Speaker 2: 14:44

you can't hear yourself think.

Speaker 1: 14:46

And then I just this week said I cannot hear myself think. And it was like that's not talked about, of how I think our emotions are all tied in sensory work. Plus, like, literally social media, the microwaves beeping. It's like, literally social media, the microwaves beeping. You hear the laundry machine, you know, and then it gets this point and you're just like what is wrong? And am I the only person that can't process?

Speaker 2: 15:14

Yes, yeah, it's so hard. Oversimulation is so, and you, a little bit ago, you were talking about like the mental load too. That is so hard. Also, like remembering everything, being in charge of everything and knowing like we wouldn't want it any other way. It's just like, again, balancing those two things Right.

Speaker 2: 15:31

So a lot of it, honestly, back to basics, is like regulating your nervous system, and I feel like I've had a dysregulated nervous system since childhood right, like just baseline anxiety that was heightened by postpartum anxiety. Childhood right, like just baseline anxiety that was heightened by postpartum anxiety. So a lot of it is this internal work. Like what? Why am I dysregulated? I read a lot of books, I listen to podcasts. I love your guys' podcast. It's like hearing other people's stories. Connection is really important. Knowing you're not alone. I feel like that dysregulates us, like I'm the only one with toddlers who are screaming and throwing things at each other. Like, no, I'm not alone. It's that self-compassion and it's again finding ways to regulate your nervous system. So things that have been working for me right now with two toddler boys are the deep breathing, it's the positive self-talk, it's observing the thoughts before reacting. So there's a difference between responding and reacting.

Speaker 2: 16:24

Primetime example, this morning, thunderstorm that was happening. My oldest, three and a half, liam, was like oh shit. I'm like what? That's the first time he said that word. I'm like, oh my gosh. So I stayed calm, which is like you know, maybe me dysregulated a few months ago would have been like what did you just say? Like that's such a bad, you know. But me regulated this morning I was like, okay, deep breath, hey, what was that word? You said he's like, oh shit, thunderstorm. I was like, oh, I think that's a potty word. Like maybe we don't use that I know you hear big people using it. So like regulating myself to try to regulate him. So he didn't feel the shame with it.

Speaker 2: 16:59

Again, very hard work, so hard and you're not going to get it right. All the Back to the self-compassion, I think, is remembering that we are humans and humans are flawed too. So they don't want perfect moms, perfect humans. They want humans and moms who are flawed, make mistakes, repair, because that's how you want them to be right. You don't want them to be perfect little humans. You want them to be themselves and see how you repair. Sorry, I feel like that was long-winded.

Speaker 1: 17:31

No, I love that. I love that because you said something too, you know, because I think, and again you know I tell people TikTok, social media. You get like sometimes you get spiraling or at least I do on algorithms and it's like you know, lord, help you look at one thing and then you know it's 15 lions, you know reels that you're like why am I watching content in Africa? Now that you know I put on one thing, it takes you down this path, but it does that too when you're spiraling about anxiety. Am I a good mom? So, like, I tell people you gotta be really careful what you see, because then you intake it right and it's. I think too. You see all this.

Speaker 1: 18:06

Like you know you have to be calm before your kids. Calm, but no one's actually really saying what you just said. Well, how do you calm yourself? Calm, but no one's actually really saying what you just said Well, how do you calm yourself Right? Like it's these statements again, these parenting experts saying you can't, you know, regulate a dysregulated child if you're not. It's like, okay, I get that, we're seeing that.

Speaker 2: 18:22

But yes, how do you regulate yourself? It's? It's wild that you said spiral. Have you seen inside out too, yet?

Speaker 1: 18:30

Not yet it's on our list to do. Oh cute.

Speaker 2: 18:33

So they depict anxiety, so like validating and like even for adults, right. So like she, she actually spirals, like she's like spiraling and so like the technique they showed which you know there's so many techniques to try to regulate yourself again were like the grounding exercises. So like touching and seeing and deep breathing. So she, the character Riley, like started deep breathing and inside her head, joy is like telling her not to connect with the panic attack that she's having, Right? So like I don't remember the words exactly, but like you are not your thoughts, or like what? What would you say to yourself? Like you know, my kid is a good kid having a hard time. I'm a good parent who's having a hard time, like things like that to yourself. And then, like the deep breathing, is she like she unspiraled herself and pulled herself out of that panic attack and it was such a beautiful depiction of it. But the yeah, the deep breathing helps so much.

Speaker 2: 19:29

The positive statements, affirmations, worked a lot like so well for me during postpartum too. The research shows that about after 60 days of practicing affirmations again a practice, right, like saying it to yourself over, seeing it on a post-it note it starts to become part of your brain, like we rewire your brain. The neuroplasticity of our brains is so cool how we can reshape them. So what worked for me postpartum was I can do hard things. So I am postpartum, during COVID, with a newborn, socially isolated and political upheaval Like how do I handle this? And I just kept telling myself I can do hard things. How do I deal with a baby who's going to start crawling? I've never dealt with a baby who start crawling before. I can do hard things. I can do hard things. How am I going to deal with a baby who's walking? I've never dealt with a baby who's walked before.

Speaker 2: 20:15

But I kept telling myself I can do hard things. I can do hard things and I think it helped, like rocking him at 3am. Like how the heck am I going to do this? Like I can do. I also told myself I can do the things I think I can't do. So like not attaching to, like oh my gosh, I'm not gonna be able to do this. Like no, you can and you will, you'll do it. So it is like it is talking to yourself, the positive talk, like not like you said with the social media, how you can, that's the energy you absorb, right? So like setting boundaries there too, with maybe putting a time limit on the app for the day or like putting it in another room, like actually being intentional with boundaries, is really important so you don't get sucked into that type of energy.

Speaker 1: 20:55

I love that and I, you know, I think too. I found myself and I've talked to several moms who sometimes you always disassociate when you go on to social media. You want to break from your actual reality and it goes back to not wanting to deal with those emotions. You're feeling, right, you're overwhelmed, or you're angry, or you're disappointed, or maybe you're triggered from something Talk about the grief. Maybe it's been a day that something's triggered you, right, and it kind of does seem like an easier escape to just scroll right Doom scrolling, as some of the kids say, or you know, or Netflix and chill right, like where you're, just like bugged out. But I think, again, it goes back to people do not know how, or maybe you've never been introduced to sitting with our feelings, and feelings are hard because a lot has grown up where we were never taught this right, or if we expressed it, it was shut down or you know, we were labeled. So what? What do you say to that of sitting with feelings? Let's start sitting with our feelings in motherhood.

Speaker 2: 21:58

It's so hard, but you're exactly right. So I think it's like this balance too. Right, like sometimes you do need to just like sit there and scroll social media, cause like it has been one of those days and I don't want to sit with my feelings. So it's like this oscillation. You have to find that balance and you have to sit with your feelings, like if you don't, it's going to come up in such unhealthy, toxic ways and we don't want that either. Right, like we're the generation that's really breaking cycles and the generations before us are doing the best they could with what they had at the time and we know they fell short. In a lot of ways. We're going to fall short too. So it's like holding all those things at the same time and like so allowing yourself to sit with your feelings looks like an example.

Speaker 2: 22:32

Last night was like I was frustrated. My husband's a basketball coach and like if you know anyone who's a coach is like it's long hours and we love it, like I support him and it's also hard. It's summer ball right now too. So you know being with the boys all day and then he's home for he's teaching summer school. He's also a teacher, so maybe there's like a two hour window where he helped me and he was so hands on and I'm like, oh my gosh, he only has to do this for two hours. Like how is this fair? And I felt the anger bubbling up and the stuff and I'm like, no, we have to sit with this because we're not going to take it out on him. It's not his fault, we're not going to take it out on these babies. So like I was like hey, I love writing, I'm going to put some stuff into paper. And I read somewhere about this emotional regulation technique of like, if you don't want to do full on journaling or like writing a story, just write a poem. Just like, put your energy somewhere. They say like no matter what goes, put your energy somewhere. I wrote a poem to my boys. I send them emails. I made them their own email just so they'll have stuff for me one day in the future. And I just sent them an email and I was like a poem email and I was like, oh, I feel better, like it's funny that these things actually work, but when you do them they do work. So, moving your body, putting your energy somewhere, writing, coloring one of my sisters that's her go-to coloring, like anything to put this energy, and it's not bad energy, it's just like this energy you have to get out.

Speaker 2: 23:54

I think also important with your feelings is giving yourself permission to feel them, because we're like again the like self-criticism is like I shouldn't be angry, I should just be grateful, or I shouldn't be sad, like whatever, like allowing yourself again that self-compassion, like hey, you're allowed to be mad, like this is hard, or you're allowed to be anxious right now, like that's a normal emotion, and remembering that emotions and feelings are fleeting too right.

Speaker 2: 24:18

So like it's like a wave, like you're gonna feel it and then it's gonna come back down and all the emotions the joy, the happiness and the sadness and anxiety and I think that's it actually like cultivates, like a more appreciation for your life and gratitude is because you realize like they're all fleeting, so like when it's the hard, tough emotions, like I can get through this, like this emotion will go away. You know, what am I going to do to help it get away? Am I going to walk or draw or take deep breaths Like what am I going to do? What feels good for me? And like the joy and happiness, like wow, they're, these are my kids and I have them and I'm not going to have this forever. So like being grateful and mindful in those moments. Again, balancing it all at the same time is so hard. Being a human is so hard.

Speaker 1: 25:00

Very hard what I you know. So I love that you're teaching all this to your students and I think you know, do you ever have any male students who are not fathers yet who are looking at you when you're talking to this guy and like what, what is happening, what is going to work? Yeah, looking at you when you're talking this guy like what, what is happening? Yeah, you know. And I but I think that is again I tell everyone it's you know, the more I just talk about maternal mental health, I moms who come to me and they're like I'm experiencing this, sarah, blah, blah, blah.

Speaker 1: 25:26

And I often say I don't know how you couldn't have experienced anxiety or depression or PTSD from what you have told me. You have endured your whole life and you know, leading up to a really complicated pregnancy or delivery or situation. Right, I always say you know there's so many factors that come into play that we don't give credit to right. Like we sometimes are so narrow-minded of like, well, I have this baby. Like we sometimes are so narrow minded of like, well, I have this baby, but why am I feeling X, y and Z? It's like, well, you just moved, you now are loss of identity, you can't be with your friends anymore. Your baby was in the NICU or that history of physical sexual abuse you had as a child that's bringing up right. So I tell people we really don't look at the whole picture of who we are as a person. So back to how you're teaching the whole lifespan it's complicated, so complicated.

Speaker 2: 26:19

You just exactly described systems theory, right. But you're looking at every single system in a person's life, not just like you just had a baby and that's it. Like there's so many other systems involved. So that's when clients come for therapy too. I'm like you know it's people come for one specific thing. Like you know, I lost someone, or I'm postpartum and I'm like you know, there's so many other parts of your life so it's okay. Because they they're like oh, I'm sorry I'm talking about this. I'm like, nope, that's part of your system, that's part of like where you are in life and like that's okay. So it's all intertwined. Right, like the past to worry about the future, the current life you're living. So it's it all intersects with each other. So you're right when you like say it's important to look at all of it and process all of it.

Speaker 1: 27:04

It's hard to do this by ourselves. So that's why we need people like therapists to guide us through right, because I know in my and I've been in therapy for a good bit I did a lot of therapy, especially with my oldest, and I had to do EMDR therapy. And I'm actually full transparency fixing. To get back into EMDR therapy because my youngest just turned three and he was a traumatic birth as well and I kind of put that one in my pocket. I was like it's fine, it wasn't as bad as the first one, and three years later his birthday was extremely triggering to me and it presented in ways that I was like I can't continue to do this. So I think that is something I encourage all listeners is that you're not supposed to do this alone. A you're not supposed to do life alone, motherhood alone and working through systems or your history or how you're feeling. You really need a professional.

Speaker 2: 27:59

Yeah, sorry that you went through that it's. It's so hard, but you bring up such a good point that it lives in our body. Right, the trauma, yeah, it like actually manifested on the anniversary because your body knew what was coming up. Right, like the trauma and the hardships live in our bodies. So, kind of going back to like finding ways to regulate yourself and you like get connections and get help and EMDR is a great one for therapy.

Speaker 2: 28:22

There's so many different ways to like heal and process and it can change like from week to week or day to day, like whatever feels good for you in those moments, or even just feels okay, right, cause, like sometimes trauma is so hard. Like some some days, especially postpartum, all I needed to do was just like cry, just sob, like about what was going on, about my own stuff I had as a child and like how I don't want to carry some things forward. And other days it's like I'm feeling anxious, I need to just go for a walk. So it's like figuring out what feels okay for you in the moments and then knowing the threshold, like you said, like I think I might need to call a therapist again for EMDR me five months postpartum with Liam. I think I need to be on something like Lexapro right away.

Speaker 2: 29:03

Right, you can't suffer. I feel like there's a yeah, there's a line like where you have to. You have the self-awareness to like, say like I'm suffering. Right now. I need more help than like. These coping skills are allowing me to go forward with life, right now.

Speaker 1: 29:18

So that's and I think that's something I hear from so many moms, especially first time moms, and I was at. You know, I hit rock rock bottom at four months postpartum with my first and. But it took to that rock moment for me to finally say like it's either one way or another and you know the other direction is not going to be good. And that was now as a second time mom. I don't want to get to that cliff and I tell that to moms. I'm like, unfortunately, we're trying to enclipped. We're trying to say, hey, recognize these things.

Speaker 1: 29:49

But I do see second time moms or third time moms really knowing that, like when it barely starts coming, they're like, whoa, I need to get engaged and need help. I don't ever want to go back there again. So it's kind of hard. But I love your book again because there's you kind of have to. I love hearing other people's stories and reading their stories of saying, oh, that was me, and if you keep reading that story, this is where she kind of got to and I don't want to follow that path.

Speaker 2: 30:16

Yeah, I'm with you, I feel that's why you say that there's a term, it's called bibliotherapy. So the way books and words can like make you feel validated or seen like a form of therapy and I love it. So, like I love reading, like you said, reading other people's stories. I have so many mom books it's crazy, but you feel seen in the words and a lot of grief books I recommend to my grief clients too. It's like you feel seen in other people's words. You're like I'm not alone.

Speaker 2: 30:40

Someone else experienced that the flip side of social media a lot I found I like a curated my mom page just for like those accounts that are validating and supportive and some of the words I saw. I'm like I feel seen in the way like, especially a sleep account, like Liam slept with us, brody was like Mr Independent in his crib, so like both things can be true. Like I can have a kid who wants to be close to me and I can have a kid who likes his own sleep in his own space. So feeling seen in those moments too because, again, we live in this culture. That's like no, you're not sleep training your baby, what's wrong with you? Let them cry it out, you know. So, yeah, yeah it's hard.

Speaker 1: 31:16

The judgment and the criticism on moms is all time high right, and you know. So talk to that for a second. What tell your clients where they're like? I get judged from the moment I woke up how I, you know, dropped them off. To you know the car seat battle. To you know I had to carry my kid from the pool screaming. You know any which way or you're just judging yourself.

Speaker 2: 31:40

Yeah, I think it kind of. So it goes back to like not attaching to those. So it's again, it's really hard Cause like we're humans who feel, our feelings get hurt, like mine have got like, especially postpartum with Liam. The first time is like how?

Speaker 2: 31:53

do I navigate this Like what the heck? And then I started reading and learning about boundaries too. So again, it's like taking it's a practice, right. So like the first little bit with Liam is like I was just like and a lot of people just call me overly sensitive and I'm like, I feel like I'm just a human with emotions, like I am a sensitive person and an empath, but I just let myself feel those things Like what she said was not very nice and I'm going to cry about it, or. And then like learning these boundaries, so like next time it happens, right. It's like kind of like these learning lessons.

Speaker 2: 32:22

So like someone's judging you for, I don't know, giving your baby a fifth bottle of milk, or whatever. You're like well, you know, I know my baby the best and he wants another bottle of milk. So it's like saying these things. It's like getting this empowerment within which, like you said, great to do with therapists Also, you can do it too. Like this, these practices like positive self-talk, empowering yourself. So it's I still struggle with it too, right, like I said, but I feel like I've gotten better. So like if someone's, like you know, says something, I'll be like no, like I appreciate it and I know what's best for my baby. Or you know this is what we're going to do, this is what works best for our family, or no, I'm sorry we don't feel like going to that today. Or hey, I'm overstimulated today, I'm sorry. I know I said we would come but want to please everyone. So it's realizing you have needs too that deserve to be met and also you have little people's needs that need to be met too. So balancing all of that and I think it goes back to being nice to yourself. The lady at the pool is like super judgy and mean, so I'm going to be nice to myself. I know I'm a good mom. I know that her reaction is a reflection of her and her own stuff. So like again, like realizing her humanity too, and like maybe she's miserable, like whatever it is for her.

Speaker 2: 33:37

One of these tricks I learned my clients love it is called return to sender. Someone's being a jerk or judgmental or mean or says something In your head. You're like no return to sender. So if the lady at the pool is like you need to control your children, or something like that in your head, you can be like return to sender, return negative energy back to sender. I do not want this energy, so, like, you don't attach to it, you send it back.

Speaker 2: 34:01

A lot of my clients have been doing that one and I'm like, and if you don't want to give it back to her because she's probably a miserable person that's projecting onto you, you can just say, like I don't want to even give it back to her, I'm just gonna like send it out into the universe or buried in the ground or whatever. Like I'm not keeping whatever energy you're trying to give me. I'm gonna release it and also finding that balance too, because, like, again, you're human, so, like, obviously it's gonna affect you, so allowing yourself to be like okay, that lady is a jerk and it triggered me a little bit and I'm gonna figure out a way to like not attach to this right. Like an unhealed person, I feel like would like stew over that right like for a long time. Like I'm gonna just keep you know that, like not get it out of their head. You can't attach to it, you just have to like release it, return it back to her, return it to the universe, whatever, for your own peace of mind.

Speaker 1: 34:45

That is legit gonna be my new motto. I'm obsessed with that return to center, that is is we have a lot of things returned. Um, that's gonna occur, but I, I love that and I love that you're teaching clients and that's something that people are like. You know, I try to say and I, I was at first, I was that way too and someone when I well, I mean, I had no other option but to get into therapy.

Speaker 1: 35:05

But I before I was like you know, therapies for big life events, therapies for you know this, that, but literally, therapy is learning yourself and learning tools that were never taught to you, like the return to center, how to like have this self-talk working through your system. So that is, we're such big fans of therapists and therapy, of like doing the good work. Because motherhood is hard. I, you know you could have had, and some of my listeners say, you know, I had a picture perfect pregnancy and postpartum. I didn't suffer, you know. But now this, and I'm like there's no, but there's no justification for working on yourself and processing with someone. I always say you don't have to have a crisis to start therapy.

Speaker 2: 35:47

Right, yes, 100. I agree, I wish everyone would do it, Just like the world would be better. Yeah, that validation, that safe space. And you tell a lot of people to like don't give up. Like if you're trying to find a good PCP or good OB, don't give up until you find someone you click with. Cause a lot of people like have not so great experience with therapy and then be like I'm not going to do it again, but like don't give up until you find someone that works for you.

Speaker 2: 36:10

Right, and then, knowing you can't like, a good therapist will be like if it's not working, we'll say like I know that my therapy modality is not serving this client, like maybe they need to go find someone else. One of my friends is also a people pleaser and she stuck with the same therapist for four years, even though the therapist wasn't serving her because she is such a people pleaser. And then she realized she's like after her second miscarriage and then other forms of grief she's experienced like I can't keep doing this. So she ended with her and then moved on to a new therapist and it's working beautifully. So it's not giving up until you find something that works for you.

Speaker 1: 36:43

I love that and you know I I think even you know there should we could probably do a whole podcast episode on people pleasing, right, Because I think there's a lot of moms and us who are like you hear that term and you may think it's not really me, but then you hear these situations that you're like, oh, I do that or no, I didn't want to tell her no or no, I didn't want to hurt her feelings, or yeah, it's just easier to like, make my world a lot harder than to, you know, set that boundary.

Speaker 2: 37:12

Yes, exactly, and it's. It is hard work and once you start practicing, I feel like it. So, with anything, it's uncomfortable at first, right, I think that's why people don't want to do this hard work is because it's uncomfortable and it brings up a lot of feelings and emotions. But that's how healing happens, too Right. Like you get through the other side and like there'll be setbacks in life and things will happen and then now you'll have better coping skills to get through it. Right, but like getting into that and like allowing yourself to feel it is, I feel, like, so important too. I tell my grief clients all the time cause it's a lot of this shoulds and or, and moms too like you should be doing this, you should shouldn't be doing this, you shouldn't be doing this, you shouldn't be, you know. And once you give people permission to do these things, you feel like they soften a bit and they're like, oh okay, so they feel this stuff, they find coping skills and they move forward, which is so important.

Speaker 1: 37:59

I love all that and I want to tell our listeners how to find more of you, so tell them where they can connect to you on social. We'll make sure we link your book and everything in the show notes, because I know a lot of our listeners are multitaskers. So we're out running around and we're just like I don't want to put a paper, so don't worry, we'll put everything how to find Nikki, but just tell them how to connect with you.

Speaker 2: 38:19

Yeah, good question. So my Instagram is at mama, let's talk about my book. Mama, let's talk about all of it is on Amazon right now. I wish I would have made it. I don't know how to make audio books, but everyone's like you should have made an audio book because, like, moms don't have time to just sit down and read. I'm like, yeah, that's a good point, so maybe I'm working on the next one is going to be Mama. Let's Talk About the Toddler Years, which are a whole different story.

Speaker 1: 38:51

Come back on on please. We will do one about toddler years. That is what I am living currently and you know I I saw this real back to the social media, real, you know, spiraling here. But it was like this, this couple, and they're like your life doesn't change with the baby and like they were like had the baby strapped on and they were at the brewery. Then they were like popping out to these gifts and they're like it changes in the toddler years and the kid was having a meltdown, like in the middle of like this restaurant. One was trying to like run after the other kid and I'm just like, oh, that's a conversation we should have.

Speaker 2: 39:18

So it's so different and like going through it, like it. So it's important to validate, like, where you are in this experience. Like postpartum is so hard. It's like trying to take care of a person who needs you 24 seven and trying to take care of a person who needs you 24-7 and trying to take care of yourself. And then the toddlers are like oh, there's a lot of stuff inside of me that I need to work through and heal right. So it's like the postpartum is like kind of this baseline. And then these toddlers, you're like oh, like there's a lot of internal work I need to do right. So it's like this whole different ballgame. And still the comparisons are still there, the lack of self care is still there, like all the things are still there. And then there's this other part of like I'm not passing this stuff on to these toddlers, like I need to do this work, so I don't pass this stuff on. It's taking a lot longer to write this book, if you can imagine. Yeah, baby's sleeping or cuddling me, so yeah, yeah, no, that's.

Speaker 1: 40:07

I'm so excited about that Because I think that is something people are like. Well, you didn't warn me about the toddler years, and I've said that too. I'm like I think I, you know, I, no one warned me about postpartum, truly, but then no one, you know. I kind of thought, well, I got through postpartum toddlers should be, and then I'm, I felt I think the emotional part is so challenging in the toddler years and you're right, it brings up a lot of things because they will be very defiant, they will tell you, no, they will have the audacity to do whatever they want to do because they're toddlers. And this is what happens, right, and it is very triggering. So I am so waiting for that book and we will bring you. I will talk about that, but I think it's a good relay into.

Speaker 1: 40:49

We ask all our guests this question and I always say no right or wrong answer here. What is one thing that you wish that you know now? Mama too, you're in the toddler year trenches we call it. Go back to when you first got that first pregnancy test. What would Nikki now tell Nikki then that you would know about motherhood?

Speaker 2: 41:10

It's funny you ask that because I was telling someone. I always had this like internal. I don't know Like I feel like I internalized it from people's voices and just the way people made me feel about myself and the way I made myself feel about myself is I didn't think I was going to be a good mom. So, like being pregnant with Liam, I'm like I didn't feel like any certain, like I was excited to have it, be pregnant and start our family, but I'm like I'm not going to be good at this. Like everyone, like not no one ever said you're not going to be a good mom.

Speaker 2: 41:36

I don't know if I'm explaining it right, but it's just like something like I internalized. So I'm like I'm not going to be good at this. Like what? And then I'm like I want another one right away, cause I'm like I I am good at this. So, like telling Nikki, who just found out you know they're pregnant, it's like you are going to be a really good mom. I don't know why I'm like going to cry. You are like a good mom. Like all all those things you're internalizing and the things that you feel like people made you feel are wrong, you're a really good mom and you're going to be a really good mom. So that's.

Speaker 1: 42:12

We can tell you're talking with you. Just you are, and I think that's. I think you're not alone. A lot of moms have that narrative in our heads and we're really trying to break that and it's what, like all your books about what you stand for is talking about it, and this conversation, I know, is going to reach the people's ears and it's going to inspire and continue and they can find you on Instagram. I looked at affirmations on Instagram. You know, weekly she has them. Everybody's like. Going back to affirmations, they're like how do we even start? Don't even, don't even try to figure it out. Just read what Nikki's got on her.

Speaker 1: 42:43

Instagram. Write it out and say it to yourself daily. So the work. I am so sorry that everything you've went through, but I always tell people there's. You are using your journey and your pain and healing not just yourself, but others, so thank you for that.

Speaker 2: 42:59

Thank you. Thank you for the work you do too.

Speaker 1: 43:02

Well, we're, we're all in this together and, guys, this is. I hope this conversation has just made you feel better because I have a Nikki Thank you so much and we will have you back. We're going to talk about the toddler years. Oh yeah, I will be back. This will be great. Okay, guys? You guys have a wonderful rest of your week and we'll be back with you next week.

Speaker 3: 43:23

Maternal mental health is as important as physical health. The Preview Alliance podcast was created for and by moms dealing with postpartum depression and all its variables, like anxiety, anger and even apathy. Hosted by CEO founder Sarah Parkhurst and licensed clinical social worker Whitney Gay, each episode focuses on specific issues relevant to pregnancy and postpartum. Join us and hear how other moms have overcome mental health challenges, as well as access tips and suggestions on dealing with your own challenges as moms. You can also browse our podcast library and listen to previous episodes at any time. Please know you're not alone on this journey. We're here to help.