Speaker 1: 0:10

Hey guys, welcome back to Preview Alliance Podcast. This is Sarah and guys, I am so excited, probably one of the more exciting conversations that I am happy to bring to you. I have the authors of Too Tired to Fight which let's just pause for the title, the greatest title ever that describes parenting Erin and Stephen Mitchell, who are here to talk to us today about legit. What do we do when now we're parents, we're in this relationship, we have conflict and we have no energy to handle it. So welcome, guys. I am so ready to absorb like a sponge everything that you're going to tell us and just thank you again for doing this work, but start us off with giving us a little about you how long you've been married, what's the kid situation and what brought you to create such a wonderful resource.

Speaker 2: 0:58

Well, first thanks for having us.

Speaker 3: 0:59

Thank you so much. We're really excited to be here.

Speaker 2: 1:05

It is really great to be here. A little bio so we are 16 and a half years into being married, which has been really great. We have three kids 12, 10, and 6.

Speaker 3: 1:16

Our 12-year-old is just shy of 13. He's looking at 13. And yesterday I said he's 12. And he was like I think you should just start saying he's 13. Just say the 13. And yesterday I said he's 12. And he was like I think you should just start saying he's just say the 13.

Speaker 2: 1:27

But yeah, and so we and we both have like mental health backgrounds Aaron has a master's in counseling psychology, I have a PhD in medical family therapy and we thought that when we had kids there was going to be no one better at relationship than us. I mean, we had all the knowledge, we had all the you know, even practical and professional experience, and we had kids and it just smacked us in the face, I think, in a way we didn't know could happen.

Speaker 3: 1:55

Correct. Yes, so that 13-year-old. When he came along we really really did expect we had done all sorts of couples counseling. I already had my master's, stephen had his master's in counseling and was pursuing his PhD in medical family therapy at that point and we really did think we've got this. And of course we knew it would be like, you know, we'd have hiccups, but it really was so challenging and honestly, it was in the midst of that. We'd kind of always knew we'd wanted to work together. Um, and we would start crafting these resources, like why is there not a resource for this moment, like this moment, the moment where there's a baby on me? There's literally just baby things littered all over our living room. Stephen comes in tired from having been at work having off his.

Speaker 3: 2:36

PhD and then looks at me and says something about like and it's understandable, he's got a lot going on. But I'm like in what world do you think I have been considering what we're having for dinner? There's a human on my body. Those types of things. I get where you're coming from. I think you get where I'm coming from, but how do we have this conversation?

Speaker 2: 2:54

Well, and I think we were even surprised in pregnancy too, we experienced pregnancy loss and we weren't really prepared for that. We didn't know that that was part of having kids until you know, it happened for us or could be. And so I think we just had all these experiences where we're like, oh my goodness. And then we went and looked like, where's the help, you know, and we didn't really find that like what we were looking for. We didn't feel like there were good, psychologically sound research, informed, you know, resources, all that kind of thing. And so we said maybe we should be the help that we we want. And so that's how we created the couples counseling for parents, and that's kind of how our business started. But yeah, that's kind of what we do, that's who we are.

Speaker 1: 3:38

I love that and I think it's important. I love that you say you know you guys were trained in this, you know you're professionals and I always tell that you know, especially when we talk about mental health issues in general. I tell our moms, I always say, postpartum depression, anxiety, it does not discriminate. And, honestly, the conflict of parenting and relationships, it doesn't either right, it can fall into anybody's life and we just don't know how to handle it. So in your book I love that there's a lot of conflict situations that 99.9% of us can go uh-huh, yes.

Speaker 1: 4:10

And I think one that I hear early on from especially our previous moms, is the mental load and it starts in pregnancy, honestly, or trying to even get pregnant right, because, like she's tracking, tracking it can be like almost robotic, this is the time, this is the date, this is ovulation, or if she has to get, you know, ivf help, or you know you're, you're doing shots, right, and it's like that's all kind of feels like on her and he's like, okay, it may not even feel real yet, even when she's pregnant, because like it's early. What do you tell couples when that starts early, like that mental load difference, and she's feeling it and he's like OK, I don't know what to do here. I'm trying to help.

Speaker 3: 4:54

So, honestly, I think yes to everything you're saying first off, but so it depends the couple who's in that situation right now, I think, typically the way that that starts to separate, because, honestly, that is what happens. There's this embodied experience that this pregnant person is having that I have, that Steven just doesn't know about. But I don't really know about it either. It's this thing that I'm just rolling with and this is the only thing that can be happening, and so I don't take the time to think about it. I'm just like aware of it and constantly like on a cellular level, like this is my new identity and world. And, to not add to the mental load, it's not their job to think, to say these things out loud, like it can't be. We cannot ask that person to be doing another thing in their day.

Speaker 2: 5:38

We do need to look to their partner.

Speaker 3: 5:41

You need to ask you to say like we need to look to steven to the stevens, to these partners and say, ask, what is this like? My world is changing. It starts to go bad when it's like everything's changing for me and nothing's changing for you and this partner's like well, things are changing for me, and then you start down a conversation that no one actually wants to be having, because of course you know the stevens of this conversations world. They're, but not in the same way. The cost is different, everything is different.

Speaker 2: 6:07

It's just so. I mean, the embodied aspect of it is so key and so unique and I do think kind of where you're going, Erin, how the non-pregnant partner, how it can be a resource and kind of push against that mental load beginning in pregnancy is to ask, to be curious, to say this is what I notice is happening for you, because that partner does have space in terms of they are not being overwhelmed in the same way. And I think that if Erin had felt me being more curious and more inquisitive and even asking her what is this like for you, what do you notice? That she would have felt like I was with her, in a way that she didn't feel like I was with her in pregnancy.

Speaker 3: 6:56

Absolutely, and I think that there's. So if you are that pregnant person right now, well one. If you're that pregnant person's partner, ask are you feeling pressure? Does this feel like a lot on your plate? Is this exciting? Like all in a minute? You know, like ask these questions because they're not withholding Pregnant person's not not sharing, they don't know who's asking them those questions. But then if you are that pregnant person listening, you can ask yourself and tell your partner like hey, I think it would be helpful for me if you connected to me in this way, like, could you think to ask these things?

Speaker 3: 7:32

And if you aren't going to remember, listen to the Preview Alliance podcast. They're going to remind you. You know, listen to us, we're going to remind you. Like, check in. You need and Stephen would try to do it weekly. You know there's so much in that pregnancy that's marked by weeks Ask, check in. And then, if you're beyond that, if you are in that sort of postpartum and it doesn't really matter how far postpartum stage go back, it is so important you're able to share those experiences. It's never too late and it is always important.

Speaker 1: 8:02

I love that, and you know you mentioned on something too is and I think this can happen kind of quickly. If you always come competitive and it starts in pregnancy, my life is changing, yours is not. Then it kind of becomes of like physically I am so changing. You know I am growing this human. I've been. You know I had a C-section. I was cut open or you know I delivered this baby. Now you know I'm more tired than you. I'm doing more of the work than you. I have the kid. You know I call it a work more than you. It's a slippery slope because people might be going. I can't imagine us getting competitive over who's more tired. But quickly you will see your partner yawn and you will be like are you yawning? You were not five times last night, right? So how can we stop the spiral of competitiveness? And it's not really like a tick for tap, right? What can we do? Because I think it starts so early and it kind of builds off resentment. Correct me if I'm wrong, though.

Speaker 2: 8:59

I think, yes, we call that competitiveness that whose life is harder game. Couples get stuck in and no one wins that game. And I think maybe I can just speak to at least my. Aaron's experience in pregnancy and in mothering is I'm going to use a word more difficult, and I think where the insecurity comes for someone like me is that my experience then doesn't matter or isn't significant, and so what begins to happen is I can get competitive because I'm pushing back, trying to make my experience matter, but just because Aaron's experience is more difficult I mean, think about it, pregnancy is more difficult than not being pregnant. Maybe someone wants to make that argument that it isn't, but it is. It feels unavoidable to me in terms of what is happening on a physical level, and so I think for me it is the mindset of recognizing and naming what might be happening for Erin and that it is more challenging isn't diminishing to my experience, it's just validating of hers.

Speaker 3: 10:27

And, in fact, when that validation piece finally comes because it has to come there has to be this like I think the way that Stephen actually said it to us, we talk about this in the book is this moment of like you're trying to tell me that there is a cost to all of this, to pregnancy, to having a newborn, to infant, to toddler, to all of this, to pregnancy, to having a newborn, to infant, to toddler.

Speaker 3: 10:47

That I don't understand and honestly, it sounds so simple. But it was just like this click in my body where I was like, yes, that is all I needed from you, that is all I needed. And then of course I care, and of course it's been different for Steven, and of course everything has changed in his life too, and he's had all sorts of new experiences. I'm not trying to say nothing is happening, unless he's trying to tell me that it's not that big of a deal, it's hard for all of us. And then I'm going to fight, I'm going to dig in real deep and say like or even that it's the same.

Speaker 2: 11:14

I, you know, like I do think it is just different, and different doesn't mean it just means different and and and. What it is is trying to understand one another's differences.

Speaker 3: 11:24

We talk about this in the book as well, where and this has happened to so many of my friends, and sometimes with couples we work with, where the story sort of starts in, either like labor or some sort of pregnancy moment. But this experience where like for me. I was in active labor and I was going in and out of some water. A birthing tub, yeah, yeah, yeah, and active labor and I was going in and out of some water.

Speaker 2: 11:45

A birthing tub. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 3: 11:46

And Stephen at one point was like I really don't want to get back in there. It's really cold at this point.

Speaker 2: 11:51

And I just looked at him like I'm sorry, stephen.

Speaker 3: 11:54

Are you feeling uncomfortable, are you? Oh, someone, get this guy a towel. I didn't mean it that way, and I think that's the thing, like of course he was, the water was cold, of course he didn't want to do it and of course I was getting back in, but I get the focus there's, there's context and there has to be some perspective of and I mean, you mentioned a C-section.

Speaker 3: 12:16

How often does a person who's just had a C-section All this attention is now on this baby Understandably it's. We've been waiting for months and months, and months, and months and months, but I just had massive surgery. I am not okay, but sure, let's all talk about this baby and like make or expect you to get up and be moving and be fine, and you know you still know where my shirt is right, like, and hey, what am I supposed to do with this diaper bag?

Speaker 3: 12:40

Like you're supposed to figure it out as much as you're supposed to do. These moments do start early and I think that's that key moment to trigger in your mind hey, we got to talk about this. I can't have this. That is making me feel so defensive and it is making me want to minimize your experience. I am feeling missed in that comment and here's how Because it doesn't have to be a massive conversation every time. It just can't be. But we've got to start marking. This didn't feel good. I felt really missed in that no-transcript.

Speaker 1: 13:53

Or now you have toddlers right, and those missed conversations to me then kind of turned into like I personally know I'll like kind of hold that grudge and then maybe my husband will do one thing, and if I wasn't holding that it wouldn't have been a big deal. But then it's like it piles on and on and I'm like, and he didn't even see that the dishwasher, you know door, was open, or you know, and so let's say we've kind of waited, that mountain has been built.

Speaker 1: 14:14

How do we break that and start that conversation? Because some people are going yeah, that's us. Am I so far into it that, like, what does repair look like?

Speaker 2: 14:24

That's a really good question and, honestly, that is when a lot of couples come to us is they feel like they're at that point of like we're too far in and because you're having major blow-up fights about dishwashers.

Speaker 3: 14:38

Yeah, it's just like what is happening. How have we arrived here?

Speaker 2: 14:42

And I think oftentimes what we do with couples is we say first of all, wow, this is normal, you know what this is so expected. Your relationship isn't broken. You're not broken, you're not wrong, you're not a bad person. What has happened is your context changed. You didn't expect that you would be impacted this way, and now, a lot of times, people come at a point where they feel like they have just maybe a touch more space to think about what's been happening after having a kid, maybe 12 months, 18 months, maybe three years, you know markers and they don't know that they've done them.

Speaker 3: 15:21

But a lot of people have some hurtful pregnancy stories. You know, like I, stephen, loves when I bring up, I really wished he would have taken more pictures of me and the message I heard myself telling myself, and never said out loud, is he must not think this is magic, he must not think I'm magic, he doesn't, he's not interested in this, so he's not doing it, like, oh, I'm not going to make him be interested. Like you know, my mom can do that, that's fine, or someone else, or I just don't have them, or I take them of myself in the mirror. But that story builds.

Speaker 3: 15:49

And so now you're in postpartum and then I'm like why aren't you taking pictures or videos of me doing these absolutely normal things? But that should like take your breath away. I should be taking your breath away watching me with this little person that I've brought into this world, like how are you?

Speaker 3: 16:06

And I don't say it and I'm like you know what we just got to make it through Like 18 months will be better. But then you get to this point, whatever it is, and people have that thing like, oh, it'll be easier when they're however old. And then it's not. And it's like, oh, I still feel this. And then they do like we got to do something. I don't want this. I want to enjoy this time in our family's life cycle. Let's read this book, let's do something, but they don't always know what that thing is.

Speaker 2: 16:31

And so the way we talk about it is, there's two things that have to happen there has to be an intentional way of expressing what Aaron just expressed, like in what you were talking about, sarah, the stack up of resentment, the stack up of misses. There has to be a way to do that intentionally, that isn't critical or blaming but is more expressive of Aaron's experience. And then there has to be a way to listen, to listen with intention that suspends the defensiveness of, you know, a partner feeling blamed or like they did, you know.

Speaker 3: 17:02

You feel like you're caring more than me, don't you see I did take pictures.

Speaker 2: 17:05

I mean I took the I took. I mean look at these pictures, look. And then you know I'm going to get all the proof the evidence, people start stacking their case. And so listening in a way that doesn't do that, that believes your partner's experience and then does do that very thing that you said what a crucial word repair. And I think that repair comes when both partners feel like they understand the story of what happened.

Speaker 3: 17:30

And so, aaron, was Doesn't mean agree.

Speaker 2: 17:32

Right. So Aaron was telling a story of what was happening. You know, I started to think that you didn't care and then these other things started to stack up and I would notice this and it would kind of tap into that. And I have a story too. And my story oftentimes during pregnancy was I was absolutely overwhelmed, absolutely afraid, because our first pregnancy was a pregnancy loss and so every time we got pregnant I was just scared. And the way I handle stress is I just tune out, I just don't. I mean, I'm not saying that's okay. I'm not saying that I shouldn't have taken pictures. I'm not saying that I shouldn't have been more curious and more engaged.

Speaker 3: 18:11

Ignorations of what happened are never excuses to say it was okay. But we still have to understand what happened to be able to say, like I don't like that, I do get that and, looking back, like I can see that is exactly what happened.

Speaker 2: 18:24

And so kind of knowing that through that intentional expression, that intentional listening, we know the story for both of us. And then we can say, oh so we know that story. Now we can choose to do something different rather than just react. And I think that that is the big that's how couples get out of those stuck places. They find a way to choose instead of a lot of times couples have been reacting for years.

Speaker 3: 18:50

Right yeah, finding a new lens.

Speaker 2: 18:52

Yeah.

Speaker 1: 18:53

Now reacting, and reacting when it's a newborn baby, versus reacting. You have kids who are listening and hearing and watching how mom and dad deal with conflict.

Speaker 1: 19:03

Yeah, I think it's a good relay to this is because you know we I hear it from a lot, I've experienced my life that you know the kids get up early. You know it's hard to have one on one time, or you're so tired night or the other person's like scrolling on their phone or you want to watch your show and you just don't have that ever time to be like. So listen, this is my story of how I felt, or whatever. So ultimately the dishwasher situation happens in front of your kids. And how do you handle conflict in front of your children If you're like you don't obviously want to start, you know going to war with each other, but it's like how do you express like you got to talk about this later? Or like, if that other person's escalating, you don't escalate Like cause I hear listeners probably going that's great, I don't have five minutes to tell him this. My kids are always here, so what do we do there?

Speaker 2: 19:56

I think that's so. You describe a great cycle that happens. We call it the family dysregulation cycle. So the dishwasher happens, one partner gets upset, they maybe express it to their other partner, then there's a conflict that starts. Then the kids get anxious and get upset and do something, and then you're upset with the kids for doing something and basically everyone in the family becomes dysregulated over this conflict. And I think in some ways that's going to happen and it's not. I don't think it's negative necessarily to have disagreements in front of your kids. I do think it's negative to be screaming and yelling, and I mean there's definitely lines that you can't cross.

Speaker 3: 20:35

But I think that's the metric for if you need help with this if you're not comfortable having the kind of conflict you're having in front of your kids. You should work on it.

Speaker 2: 20:43

You should like that.

Speaker 3: 20:44

That means it needs to be different, because we should, we need to model for our kids how to be able to express hey, like this doesn't feel good, I came in. What I always say is like you have now started my day at a deficit. Like like I can't that is a no for me. Like I have enough.

Speaker 3: 20:59

On my day, I cannot be dealing with the thing I expected you to be handling. And then, Steven, I need our kids to see him be like. You are correct and I am so sorry, but if that's the trend, I'm still mad about it. If that is not the trend and that that dysregulation moment is the exception, I'm like I appreciate that. Thank you, I will figure it out, but I expect that that will not continue those matter. Because, we don't have time to have five minute or 50 minute conversations about that dishwasher that we all kind of expect isn't really going to resolve anyway.

Speaker 3: 21:36

We don't have time for that. We're too tired for that.

Speaker 2: 21:39

Yeah, and I think one of the things around the conflict in front of kids too is I mean, I do think that there's ways to have disagreements, but with your kids present. But I think you talk part of that repair part is talking through what happened with your kids, Like, hey, you know what, Mom came in and she was upset about the dishwasher not being emptied and you know what. Then I responded a little defensively. I said you know what I did it. I do it all the time. I'm sorry I forgot. Oh, my goodness, you made a big deal about it and mom, that was frustrating. She was just trying to ask me to help her and I didn't respond very well to it. But you know what, Mom and I we talked about it, we figured it out and it's okay. And basically one of the things about having conflict in front of your kids is that you name that it happened but that you also help them know that it got resolved. And I think that if you can have a practice like that, that's good.

Speaker 2: 22:31

Now, if the conflict is elevated and you're not able to move through it, I do think that there is a way to be like, hey, we got to pause, we need to talk about this and you can do that and even that, because your kids see that right. So what do you?

Speaker 3: 22:46

And we're talking babies that I'm struggling to remember, but it's like as early as three months that they can pick up, like they can watch kids have a reaction to tension in the house. We're not talking about now. You have a toddler. Like our babies know, when there is tension present, they are that attached to us, we are that attached to them.

Speaker 2: 23:05

And again, you can just simply tell them the story, like, hey, mom and I got upset and we had to go and we had to go talk about it. But you know what, we resolved it, it's okay, we're okay now. And you know that that's, it's all, all right, you know, and there's a way to tell your kids those stories and it doesn't have to be really long, it doesn't have to be really you know very bulleted, like that was stressful.

Speaker 3: 23:29

This was a stressful moment but we we were willing to do it because it's important.

Speaker 2: 23:38

I want to know and I don't want mom to feel like I'm helping you use that.

Speaker 3: 23:40

Did you hear it? No, I didn't. That's my job. I'm supposed to do it in the morning. Sarah heard it. Sarah heard him say I wanted to help.

Speaker 1: 23:45

I cue into things like that.

Speaker 3: 23:46

I didn't mean it that way, but like we have to give our kids that story and 95% of the time we are also telling ourselves and it also regulates our own bodies when we're saying like and I know dad cares and I know that that's not typical, dad doesn't usually leave that for me. Usually dad knows that's his job. He must have been really stressed this morning to not been able to get that done.

Speaker 2: 24:13

I think, sarah, you said something really important that we hear from a lot of couples.

Speaker 2: 24:18

You said not a lot of people feel like they have a lot of time to think about these things and to talk about these things, and we have people tell us you know, we don't have time to talk this way to each other, we don't have time to think about the story and understand your story, and, like, no one, no one, talks like that.

Speaker 2: 24:33

And I think what we would say is you're right, no one does, because it's a skill. Having conflict and learning how to have conflict in a way that leads to connection and actually resolution is a skill and it is something we have to learn, and there is anytime you have to learn something. There's some work that has to happen up front. That does feel harder and you might feel like, well, I don't have time for this hard work, I just want it to be over, but then you're in that cycle of, well, it's never going to get over if you don't do that hard work. But if you do that hard work to learn the skill of talking to one another in these ways, the dishwasher becomes a two-minute conversation.

Speaker 3: 25:15

Or 20 seconds and the dishwasher becomes a two minute conversation or 20 seconds. It's like yeah, and he was like yeah, I know.

Speaker 3: 25:18

I'm so sorry, like the morning got away and I do have to run. I can't do it I, but I get that adds to your plate. I'm so sorry it's over. When I know that he knows that that is adding to me. I don't care, I'm fine Like I can do it. I don't want to feel like that entitlement piece where like, well, you, I mean what are you doing Nothing? But I was planning to sit around all day. That's what I was planning to do. I had a lot of novels to get to.

Speaker 2: 25:44

Yeah, people are. People are too tired to fight in old ways that are just full of resentment, full of blame, full of criticism, full of defensiveness. People are too tired for that.

Speaker 3: 25:56

You waste your 45 minutes at the end of the day together and it didn't get better. Why would we do that? Of course, I'd rather scroll on my phone.

Speaker 2: 26:05

But these are skills to learn that speed things up and you do have to.

Speaker 3: 26:09

I mean, we spend the first probably two chapters in the book talking about. It is different after kids. So, no matter how smooth you had this before, it's different. Your priorities are different. The way you handle stress is different. The things you experience as intense are different. It's all different.

Speaker 1: 26:26

But yeah, and I think you know I've always been told there's two hearts. Right, you got to choose your heart and I guess that's a great way of looking at it is like it's going to be hard to be in conflict, but you could be in a healthy way and do that hard work in the beginning, or you could be an unhealthy way and deal with that really kind of ugly heart. So I love that you said that and listeners dive into their book and Instagram because this is a heavy conversation. Listeners dive into their book and Instagram because it's this is a heavy conversation we're hitting, you know, highlights here. This is not to fix everything in you know a short podcast, but to like normalize and to get some validation. If you're just like I just needed to hear another mom say what I felt in the morning, or, oh, maybe my husband does feel that way, maybe he was scared after we had had a miscarriage and now we're pregnant again, but he couldn't tell me because he was trying to be brave for me, right? So I think it's it's just good to hear an open conversation and towards the end, I want to touch on something that our listeners know. We focus on maternal mental health and I think you put that on top. Becoming now parents and that conversation and the woman.

Speaker 1: 27:32

I know my struggle. I didn't know really what was happening to me. I thought it was a me thing. I didn't know it was a diagnosis. I didn't know that was abnormal, I just thought I was failing. I thought, you know, part of me was like resentful in a way of like he can't see, but I never told him. So let's, what kind of you know, let's just dive in a little bit. So she's struggling or the partner struggling, right, because we know depression happens in partners and dads as well and it's actually bi-directionally correlated. So if mom is depressed, oftentimes dad will be depressed, right Even to the point of if mom is on antidepressants. There are studies that show that dad will have more of a coping skills of either alcohol or himself will need antidepressants. So how do you have this conversation of I'm mentally struggling, I'm having anxiety, I'm having depression, I'm feeling hopeless, when you're like I can't even like talk to him about the dishwasher, sarah, you know, it's like how do I dive deep to something that I'm ashamed of or maybe I don't even know about?

Speaker 3: 28:34

I think that and this was true for me as well I never did get my postpartum depression diagnosis. It was, and I had a master's in counseling psychology. Steven had a master's in counseling and was doing his PhD in medical family therapy, studying a couple's experience of pregnancy loss. So we had a lot of science behind us and I didn't know until I was probably like a year coming out of my postpartum depression fog where I was like, oh my goodness, like that wasn't just normal, that wasn't. I didn't need to have just pushed through that. And I told Steven and he was like, how did we miss it? How did we miss it?

Speaker 2: 29:12

We should have known that?

Speaker 3: 29:13

Yeah, but I do think and in hindsight and that happened twice for me Twice, our first two but I think I felt like I was saying it. I felt like I was trying to describe like this doesn't feel good, I don't feel good, I am not okay. I felt like I was saying those things. Now, whether or not I was being as clear as that, I don't know, but I do think that.

Speaker 2: 29:38

Yeah, I think you were saying those things, but it's really interesting, I wasn't listening in a way that I, for some reason and I think that this is just an honest, you know expression like it just didn't click for me and it wasn't because I didn't care, obviously. I mean, you know, again, we are kind of in this field to deal with talking to people about depression and anxiety all the time, you know, like, like it, and I, you know, we both, even you know, have our own experiences of depression and anxiety and so so, like it's not, like we don't know these things. But I think one of the reasons I couldn't hear is because of my own, I would say my level of like anxiety just went through the roof which I think speaks exactly your point there and I just didn't.

Speaker 2: 30:29

I didn't hear it, and so we're two struggling people not being able to hear.

Speaker 3: 30:34

It's just what we talk about all the time. And this is another. I know I keep referencing your book, but when we have this little person that we suddenly care about more than we've cared about anything before, our stress increases exponentially and our capacity decreases exponentially and our ability to see ourselves. So we aren't entirely sure and it is like maybe this is supposed to be this hard and maybe I'm just, maybe it is a me thing, maybe I'm just struggling more than everybody else and like I will just keep that private. We hear that all the time. Or we do hear couples say like I did, say I was saying I was crying out, or in my one doctor's appointment, you know, my one postpartum follow up, all these things like.

Speaker 2: 31:13

I took the Edinburgh that you know and that said I felt a little down, but then there's no baby blues, yeah, and then that's it, though.

Speaker 3: 31:20

But we tell couples to be very, very back to like the pregnancy weeks strategic. Be strategic about this, like put it in your calendar when your kid hits these markers and you know, we sort of say this three, six, nine, 12 markers. Pay attention, check in on each other, Be very, very, very honest about like how you're feeling, what you're seeing in your partner, because we aren't always the best measures for ourselves we're not, and we aren't always the best measures for our partners either, but together we typically have a pretty good like always the best measures for our partners either, but together we typically have a pretty good like. We are not ourselves, and we should ask, we should reach out, Like what's the benefit?

Speaker 2: 31:58

and not like nothing there's no benefit in that and I think from a partner side that you know not the embodied pregnant person, I think I think you need to go into you know, all the pregnancy, postpartum stuff, assuming that postpartum is a part of it.

Speaker 3: 32:13

not because you're trying to be negative, but like, yeah, like of course, how could it not be?

Speaker 2: 32:19

like in a really normalizing way. Like you know, yeah, I totally understand if you might be feeling more anxious or you might be feeling depressed, like my goodness, your body and all the chemistry and all the like it is changing. And come at it from a perspective of you're not failing, you're not weak, you're not doing something wrong, but like, wow, this is a really normal part of having kids and we need to be mindful of it, we need to be aware of it. There's not a judgment here. There is a real like. I think it's of it and there's not a judgment here. There's a real like.

Speaker 3: 32:51

I think it's important, I think you, I think it's not normal, I think it's common.

Speaker 2: 32:57

Yeah, yeah. So I just try to try to.

Speaker 3: 32:58

I know, I know what you mean, but like it's, we don't just keep going we right, yeah, right, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 2: 33:05

But I just mean like in terms of for the partner partner normalizing the idea of like it's it's not.

Speaker 1: 33:15

If you struggle or you're struggling, I'm open, I want to hear about it. I'm not like, because I think we never me and my husband did not ever have that conversation I was never screamed, I didn't even know. I mean I remember like one week in nursing school during op clinicals I'm saying maybe one word about it and I mean all these visits and it was just like I tell people. I was like I mean I peed in a cup and my blood pressure was taking more than you know, a zillion times and.

Speaker 1: 33:40

I never once had anybody say, sarah, you may feel X, y and Z, and I had a traumatic birth, all these things or someone's in the NICU the first one, but it was just like birth. All these things or someone's in the NICU first one, but it was just like I. We never had even that beginning open conversation of if I'm struggling or if you're struggling or if it's lasting more than two weeks. It's not the baby blue, sarah, or like you know, you feeling X. So we really were so boxed in, so we really encourage and it's. It goes back into like getting like comfortable to uncomfortableness, because mental health is really uncomfortable to a lot of people.

Speaker 1: 34:17

It's either a how we're raised or culture just in general of judgment or shame, or I call it the Instagram world where everybody's just like happy and not true, but I love how I get what you're saying is it's like this could occur, right, like one in three statistics say this and knowing I love setting those times, we see a lot of four months postpartum being very hard and nine to 12 months is when on the highest rate of suicide and overdose for postpartum moms are. So I think it's again I love those like kind of like get a plan in action, have that conversation and taking like I tell those like kind of like get a plan in action, have that conversation and taking like I tell people that you feel off, you feel weird, like hey, I've never talked to you about, but like when I was a teenager I did really struggle with anxiety. Or you know my, know your past. I always tell people know your past, know your family history.

Speaker 1: 35:04

What are our risk factors for postpartum depression anxiety? Well, we just moved, we're not around family you. Or postpartum depression anxiety Well, we just moved, we're not around family. You're starting your doctorate. I'm like transitioning from working to now stay at home, mom, right, all these things. And I tell people-.

Speaker 1: 35:18

And they add traumatic birth in there, a hundred percent right. So I always tell people I'm like you can take a lot of unknown if you just know, like, what cards you're holding.

Speaker 1: 35:32

But it takes you coming to the table to play right with those cards. So I I think it's you know and again, you guys are professionals, you're training this and you guys still were going I was feeling this way, you were feeling this way, like so I think it just normalizes, like we all struggle in it, but we have some key things we can do and I think it's a great time to ask you guys. What we ask all our guests which is one of our favorite questions is and I would love you both to individually answer what is something that you would tell pre-parent yourself about? You know, being a parent? Like what? Would you go back that first time? You're like, okay, you know, I'm fixing to be a parent. What would you, what would you wish you would know, after 16 plus years of experience of being together and now having three kids, what, what do you really think would be key for you to hear?

Speaker 2: 36:22

I think so I would go along the lines of this idea of be curious and I think you know kind of to the point that we were talking about in terms of the mental load and that that kind of thing. Be curious, and I think you know kind of to the point that we were talking about in terms of the mental load and that that kind of thing. Be curious about Aaron's experience, even though I feel lost in mine and and I think that again, like you know, I talked about I had a lot of anxiety. I, I, I am an anxious person, I, you know that's one of my lots in life that I get to interact with each day, and I think that my anxiety causes me to be very self-focused and I didn't really realize how that would apply to parenting and to my relationship. But even as a dad, in parenting, even being with our kids, be curious about other people's experience, be curious about Aaron's experience, be curious about my kids' experience, because I naturally feel anxious and get self-focused and I think that Self-protective, yeah, yeah yeah, Self-focused.

Speaker 2: 37:23

I mean I get what you're saying.

Speaker 3: 37:24

But that is the other side of that same.

Speaker 2: 37:27

Yeah, yeah, that's a way of me trying to cope with things. Yes, same yeah. Yeah, that's a way of me trying to cope with things. Yes, but I think that that would be the biggest thing for me that I still need to tell myself, telling myself that today is actually helpful. So that's what I would say.

Speaker 3: 37:40

I really like that, and I think you didn't invite us to respond, but I'm just going to respond to you, but I think, sarah, that speaks exactly to what you were talking about earlier. I think one of the best things partners can do is know their own story too, like, oh, I'm going to be afraid there's going to be some fear. I've never parented before, or I've never parented this kid because, honestly, the most anxious you were in my pregnancies was with our middle kid.

Speaker 2: 38:03

Yeah.

Speaker 3: 38:03

It was sort of like that. It just like re-upped it for no reason that we can exactly point to, it just did and but I forgot that about steven and steven forgot that about steven and we, you know, we spent 10 months feeling like, oh so we just re-disconnected. But I think, just just telling yourself that story, I think that him doing that helps me. Yeah, that is very good for my mental health, for steven to be very aware of his own.

Speaker 2: 38:29

So that's I think that's profound, I think, for me.

Speaker 3: 38:32

I was thinking while you were talking and then my answer kind of shifted. But I'll say what I was originally going to say, which is I wish I would have started much earlier, getting more comfortable, taking up space for myself. I think, as a mom and and like you know, I'm a, I'm the youngest sister of an older brother, I you know All sorts of cultural scripts that I just felt like, oh well, I can do that, I can fit and contort and chameleon myself in these particular ways, and that's my own story, but I do think it's a common female story. I'm like, oh well, I don't know what's happening for Steven, I just well, he'll figure it out, and this is about the baby.

Speaker 3: 39:06

And then, even in postpartum, my focus was 100% I want to say a bigger number, but it was 100% my kid and I forgot myself. I forgot to say I'm struggling, this is hard, I am dreading nighttime in a way that doesn't feel completely normal. I could tear up, because I know it's three, which means it's almost four, which means it's almost five, and then the sun's going to start setting and I could just melt right now. But I didn't say that, those types of things, because it was like it's hard, nighttime's hard. Who's going to sleep soon? We're going to be okay.

Speaker 2: 39:41

Yeah, and I like, and I'm going to respond to yours too. So I think sometimes when we hear this kind of language of you know I need to take up space for me, it kind of falls into a category of you know you do you, you know, like, like I'm going to get mine, that kind of thing. I don't, you're not saying that at all. I think it's that idea of taking up space for you is just knowing yourself. Yeah, paying attention to me at all, like I'm hungry and then expressing it.

Speaker 3: 40:11

But if I eat, I'm like a baby or a kid would wake up when the refrigerator opened and shut. It was just and not he. I could be playing the drums and he would not wake up. But if that refrigerator, that little seal, it was just every time like oh gosh, I'd really loved it, but I won't, I'm just not going to Starvation.

Speaker 1: 40:23

The child was starving.

Speaker 3: 40:25

Yes, but those types of things Like, like, it's fine, I don't need to eat for this baby. I'm going to skip those red peppers that I know are sliced in there and it's types of moment.

Speaker 2: 40:35

Yeah.

Speaker 3: 40:36

I would have done a lot more about a lot sooner, and I do think that a lot more of these really vitally important conversations would have been happening a lot sooner for us, preventing a ton of stack up, for sure, but also just reprioritizing my own mental health and well-being.

Speaker 2: 40:58

Well, and I think there's ways like where being able to express that and being able to take up that space for yourself and say that then, as a partner, if I'm sitting there, not competing and not feeling all like you know hurt about. Like, oh, you're saying my experience, you know hurt about. Like, oh, you're saved by experience, that's it, you know that kind of thing, then I would have had food set out, I would have gone and acknowledged like oh, I recognize your experience and I'm going to do something about it. That shows it's not just left up to you.

Speaker 3: 41:25

Like I think that that's important to validate. If validation doesn't end in action, it's honestly almost more hurtful. Yeah, yeah, well.

Speaker 2: 41:31

I have got so many personal, it's important to validate.

Speaker 1: 41:32

If validation doesn't end in action, it's honestly, almost more hurtful. Yeah, yeah, well, I have got so many personal takeaways. I feel very validated. I feel like I'm action. So I have felt like you know. This has just been such an amazing conversation. Tell our listeners where to find you guys, where to get the book and where. If they're like you know we really need some help, could they get contact? You know we really need some help. Could they get contact?

Speaker 2: 41:51

with you guys, yeah, yeah. So our website is CouplesCounselingForParentscom, our Instagram is Couples Counseling For Parents, and you can get the book you know on Amazon. You can, wherever you buy books, yeah yeah. Yeah, anywhere it's out there in the universe.

Speaker 3: 42:06

Also audiobook, because we haven't been saying that explicitly because in my mind that's just assumed. But who's reading?

Speaker 2: 42:13

I mean back to my point earlier like I'm holding a human or two or two humans and a grocery bag, like I'm not also holding you, just have that little headphones in yeah, and and if you want to like, connect with aaron, or you want to connect with me, or you want to connect with both of us on our instagram, if you go to our link in bio, there's little tabs that say you know, you can schedule free consults with us to kind of talk about what it would be like to work with us, and it's all just automated right right there. All you gotta do is click the button.

Speaker 3: 42:40

It worked very hard for that to be a very streamlined process. We love that and we we love streamlined processes around here, yeah.

Speaker 1: 42:47

Right, just click and you're there.

Speaker 2: 42:48

Yeah.

Speaker 1: 42:48

Well, guys, we'd love to have you back, because this is again. This is a conversation that is always evolving and always needed, so thank you so much.

Speaker 4: 43:03

And listeners. We will see you next week. Maternal mental health is as important as physical health. Preview Alliance podcast was created for and by moms dealing with postpartum depression and all its variables, like anxiety, anger and even apathy. Hosted by CEO founder Sarah Parkhurst and licensed clinical social worker Whitney Gay, each episode focuses on specific issues relevant to pregnancy and postpartum. Join us and hear how other moms have overcome mental health challenges, as well as access tips and suggestions on dealing with your own challenges as moms. You can also browse our podcast library and listen to previous episodes at any time. Please know you're not alone on this journey. We're here to help.