Speaker 1: 0:10

Hey guys, welcome to Preview Alliance podcast In today's episode. I have a very special guest with me today. It is Dr Leah Rappaner and she's a professor of sociology and a founding director of the Future of Work Lab at the University of Melbourne. And a founding director of the Future of Work Lab at the University of Melbourne, as you can see her featured in many articles and her research, which I love and I know you will love, is helping busy women trade mental low burnout for more joy, fulfillment and connection. So, leah, welcome to Preview Alliance podcast. I'm a huge fan, I love your research and our audience is such research-based and we are so excited to have you. Thank you very much for having me.

Speaker 1: 0:50

So let's dive in, because you are the queen of the mental load and for some of our listeners, they may have never had someone break it down. What really is the mental load? Right, we feel like we know what the mental load is. We may talk to our friends about it or we may read an article and be like, yeah, but what is this? Why is it so heavy? And am I the only one?

Speaker 2: 1:16

No, you're absolutely not the only one. If you were the only one, I probably wouldn't have a job to do to actually define the mental load. This is a really interesting question. Thank you very much for asking, and it's one of the things that I think we get the most wrong. So we did a podcast on my misperceived that talks about it and breaks it down, and I also have a book coming out next year, drained, that is going to give you all a brand new definition of the mental load and its complexities. I think you will feel very happy in about spring 2026.

Speaker 2: 1:46

But basically, we wrote an article in 2019 with myself, brenna Churchill and Liz Dean here at the University of Melbourne, and one of the things we were really trying to get at is what is the mental load? Right, because on some level, we have housework where we know what that is Like. I know if I'm cooking and I'm painting. I know what that looks like in the family. I know that if I'm doing some of the thinking, work around list making.

Speaker 2: 2:07

And one of the things that was kind of stressful for me was, you know we often think about the mental load is just like shorthand for mom's tracking lists of things whether the peanut butter is low, whether the kids need to go to soccer? And if it were just this list, making this simple tracking of things we need to do in our day, it'd be pretty simple and it would be pretty easy. It'd be overwhelming at times but it would be pretty easy to allocate, it'd be pretty easy to share and pretty easy to put into a shared Google calendar or a to-do list on the fridge or something right. And so what we were really trying to get at is what makes the mental load different, and what we came to was the mental load is thinking work. It has an emotional element.

Speaker 3: 2:48

So it's emotional thinking work.

Speaker 2: 2:50

It's not just the to-do list, but it's when the to-do list has something emotional tied to it. It's when you feel like, oh my God, if I forget or I get this wrong, someone is going to be mad at me, there will be a consequence, there will be an emotional risk and that creates emotion in you and it is the emotion that makes it so heavy, it's what makes it the low. And so this is our main argument, right, that it is emotional thinking work that is invisible, you can't see it internally. It's boundary-less meaning you can take it anywhere at any time. It's not tied to place or space. And it's enduring meaning it never ends. And so you're doing this invisible thinking work internally forever, for everyone, until they die or you die. Does that make you feel depressed?

Speaker 1: 3:37

Yeah, I mean slightly, but at the same sense, it's validation is what I'm also feeling at the same point, because I've never I think I'm not the only one who struggles with this, but it's like you do feel. It's not just the list, right, and it is, I think, moms at our guts and women in general. We don't want to fail. We certainly don't want to fail the ones we love or we've created these little humans, right, that rely on us, and society already tells us we have to be perfect, we have to be Pinterest, we have to do it all. We're super mom, right, and then we have our own pressures. So how does that all come into play? Because it's so interesting that you're you know, it's all emotions based, which women, right, we're more emotional creatures already, so it's just like taking us down when we're stabbed here.

Speaker 2: 4:27

Yeah, absolutely. This is where the gender norms come in right, where this idea that there's an incredible pressure on mothers specifically to get it right and to do it right and that, I think, is what we've heard this throughout our interviews. So we've done, you know, hundreds of interviews across the US and Australia to see what's happening for mothers' mental loads and that emotional piece that I do Like I just don't want to let anyone down, or if I don't do it, it won't get done, and that will let people down, I think is creating a huge amount of stress, a huge amount of anxiety in terms of how mothers perceive their space and place in the family, but then also the consequences in the world. So you are spot on on that.

Speaker 1: 5:09

And I think it's interesting you mentioned anxiety, because you know we are maternal mental health focused podcast and that is our huge thing is you know, the number one complication of childbirth is, you know, maternal mental health disorders, from depression to anxiety, to injuries of thoughts, to PTSD, ocd all that comes into play. Now I am not diving into research like you are, so bring it to my attention. Has there ever been maybe correlations of this work you're doing, mental load and the number one complication of pregnancy right Childbirth is depression, anxiety. It all ties together.

Speaker 2: 5:40

It's interesting you're saying that because I'll give you two studies that will fit right in. One is that E Vrotsky and Darby Sexton. They just published an article where they're looking actually exactly at that link of burnout and stress and the mental load following birth and are establishing that link. So everything you're saying is right. It's also building on other research that came previously. I don't want to give you a decade of them wildly off where basically there was this some of the original mental load research is on mother's postpartum.

Speaker 2: 6:10

Right, is this idea that you transition into this new role, have this new baby, you feel an incredible amount of joy, excitement, all the feelings, right, joy, excitement, love, adoration, et cetera, and stress, strain, overwhelm and anxiety and research coming through.

Speaker 2: 6:26

Looking at you know who's tracking from birth on. You know the vaccination schedules, the likes and dislikes, the wake schedules, and the answer is mothers are disproportionately tracking that and it's contributing to a huge mental load. Right, there's a huge amount of work that comes upon the transition into parenthood and you can see that because there's decades of research showing you know time use changes and our employment changes and our health and wellbeing changes and our relationships change and embedded within that is also that mothers step into the mental load. They step into the mental load tied to the children's care, and this goes back to your original question about well, there's social norms about. This is our most important role that mother's love is the only love, that we are solely responsible for making sure our children are well that we have an incredible role that no one else can fill.

Speaker 2: 7:11

What an incredible amount of pressure on women, right Like. What an incredible narrative to make you feel like the stakes are high, you're on a tightrope and if you step off, everything's going to collapse. What a disadvantage to men, who, we know also from an incredible amount of research, are critical to child's well-being, right Like. We know that when fathers step in right from birth, that children are more bonded. We know that they go to fathers more often. We know that they share the housework more equally. We know that father's care is so critical, and so I think that there is this social norm about motherhood that creates an incredible amount of stress, pressure and strain that then leads them to taking on more mental load, more domestic paid work, all this kind of stuff.

Speaker 2: 7:56

As I say this, I want to acknowledge, of course, that that is one piece and the biology and the stress home runs and the brain are different. There's, of course, a medical piece and you can't piece, and the biology and the stress home runs and the brain are different. That there's, of course, a medical piece and you can't outdo the biology of your brain or the cortisol or the stress, the hormones going through your brain. So I'm not saying that that should not be looked at. Of course that's serious. Postpartum depression is serious. Anxiety is serious. You should you should be consulting your gp. You're right that I'm not talking about the medical piece, but I am talking about the social piece. That overlays it all. It makes women feel like they're never enough and I think it's nonsense and I'd like to stop that.

Speaker 1: 8:34

I love that. I'm so excited about your book and I love your podcast and one of your podcast episodes that the title just like pulled me in I'm sure all my listeners will feel the same way is Are Men Dirt Blind? You know, like I wonder my husband he listens and some of our mutual friends that you know. This is where it always gets a little weird, right. It's when people who actually know us in real life listen and they're like, oh so, tell me more about that, right. But it's like, does he see the mess? Like I see the mess when research says, yeah, he does, girl don't worry.

Speaker 2: 9:06

We did the science on this. We did the science. I recorded a podcast. This is like one of my most favorite articles I've ever written over. I won't tell you how many years it's probably 20, maybe 25, is.

Speaker 2: 9:20

We were really interested in getting at this idea, like this cultural norm we throw around that men are. In fact they're blind, right, like we throw it around all the time, oh gosh, they can't find the keys. I mean, I can't tell you how many women are like why can my husband not find the keys? Is it some evolutionary process where he just can't find the keys in the house? It's like we didn't explicitly test that. So don't worry, we'll do another study on that. But one of the things we're really interested in doing is understanding. Can men actually in fact see the math?

Speaker 2: 9:48

And so what we did was we took a photo of a room. It's the same room, it's one of my colleagues' rooms and you know I was at UC Santa Barbara and we're like're like, oh, let's mess up your room. So we took a picture of her room, which is like a day room, like, um, you know, one of those rooms where you have, like, your couch and your tv, but also the kitchen, so a great room, I don't know depends which side of the world you live, on the heartbeat of the house, and we had one where it was clean and one where it was messy. And the first thing we wanted to do was see, in theory, if men can't see mess, they should look at that messy room and be like, oh, that's pretty clean, right, like. And they should look at that clean room and be like, oh, I don't know, that's somewhat clean.

Speaker 2: 10:27

And so that was our first little test was to see if actually men who look at the room that is messy see it as equally messy as the woman does. And the answer is and the answer is yes. The answer is yes, like that was it. Like the first part of it is like everyone can see the mess, everyone can see the clean. Same levels, no variation, no difference. So that idea that men are somehow dirt blind is wrong. But what we figured was that actually what's probably going on is that women are more tuned into it and we're hearing this in the mental load research too. Right, Like that women are tracking it. They're like have these eyes that are like scanning the room, like, okay, juice spilled over there, dust bunnies under here, mess over here, and the reason is is because they're worried that they're going to get a penalty for that.

Speaker 2: 11:15

And we showed that too right that actually the way that women are viewed when the room is messy or even if the room is clean, is they're seen as not good people, not good humans, not competent, not capable, not likable, and so women really are fearing. They know that the penalty will be different for them. So, it's not the men can't see it, they can see it. It's just the penalty for the mess is totally different based on whether you're a woman or a man.

Speaker 1: 11:41

That makes so much sense. And you know, I think it's even you say tracking. So my husband's a radiologist, so he literally tracks with his eyes Right, and sometimes I do say you can find that small abnormality of this like crazy image right, and then you know, to the keys it's like, but those keys you know, and I think it does just drive us a little crazy. But now we can all say the research says you show, you see it too Like and it's just again. And I love I've never heard someone explain it to me the way you did, but it is.

Speaker 1: 12:15

I do feel like, okay, well, I'm a bad mom or I'm not keeping this house. And especially I feel like in America, especially I live in the South and the South tends to put, I feel like, some cultural pressure more so I've lived up North before too it's a heavier in certain areas where what is expected of the woman and I think too it's like all these expectations of her are there, and then you add in career, or you add in children, or you add in life complications, caregiving of your parents, whatever it might be. None of those expectations are removed from her.

Speaker 2: 12:52

Yeah, and where's the grace? Right Like the grace around. We're all doing the best we can.

Speaker 1: 12:58

Yeah, there's none, there's none. And we're sometimes our worst enemies, right Like the grace around, we're all doing the best we can.

Speaker 2: 13:05

Yeah, there's none, there's none, and we're sometimes our worst enemies, right, like we, as women, compete. Yes, there's two things I want to say to you about exactly what you're saying which is spot on, which is when we're doing this research it's interesting, as we're doing some of the interviews too is we come to the same as researchers. We're, of course, neutral, neutral, but we have the same thought process that you're having, which is like these men are saying that they can't do it. You know, can't do it, don't have the skill set to do it. But if you ask, can they do this stuff at work? Can they do the work that you're asking them to do at home? Are they able to see an audiology image right, find the spot, which is incredibly challenging, but then can they find the keys?

Speaker 2: 13:38

And so sometimes I think there's this assumption that there's a lack of skills, and of course, individuals have different skills and they have different abilities, et cetera, but the idea that holistically, on average, most men can't find the keys feels like that's not a skill, that's some sort of social norm where it's like I'm not responsible for keeping track of anything in this house. I'm actually here to relax, get my rest. There's research from David Malm I love this where it's basically men are. Women protect men's sleep, in part because men are expected to be their best the next day's work. The home becomes the site of respite, this place where men recover to be prepared to step back into work. But what happens when women are working?

Speaker 3: 14:19

Where's the respite for the?

Speaker 2: 14:20

women. Where did that parallel argument about?

Speaker 2: 14:22

but home is also the place where women are supposed to come and recharge when in fact they're like, as you said, there's an incredible amount of pressure getting it right and making sure that everything's spick and span, because people will judge me. Sometimes I think it's internal to our own brains, like we anticipate a penalty that will never come, and sometimes it is external and we get the judgment. My request is like maybe less of that right as we move through the world, maybe as our worlds get more complicated and there's research showing right, like we're busier now than ever before. We have less time, people do less, they have messier homes, like all of us. So we only clean when you're coming over. We only clean when you're coming over and otherwise we're just trying to survive the day.

Speaker 1: 15:10

Yeah, I love that.

Speaker 2: 15:11

More meth and more love.

Speaker 1: 15:13

Yeah, no, I love that. And you know it's interesting because I think a lot of our postpartum moms listen to us, right. So it's like that whole saying of she may be on maternity leave, right, but she has to be the one who gets up and she has to be the one who has sleep deprivation, which we know is very highly directional to psychosis, depression, anxiety, but it's like, but he's going to work, but you're home with a baby, like it's some paradise and it's like but she's not slept for weeks. So I think it's really interesting how the maternity leave is not a maternity leave. It's not like we're on an island, you know, and we're drinking, you know, little pina coladas here and it's we're recovering. So I think it's just such those double standards of yeah, and that's her house, and then she's got to take care of that house, and if anybody's had a baby, I mean it's like every two hours, rinse, repeat of what you're doing, groundhog day.

Speaker 2: 16:04

Yeah, I have a really good friend, sarah Damaski, who once said to me she's at University of Pennsylvania. Once said to me like you know, if men have a heart, like giving birth is incredibly, it's a physical medical experience, right. And yet somehow there's all these penalties that come for women as a result of that, penalties to their career, penalties, there's like right, there's all this, but it's so different. If someone had a heart attack, or if a man had a heart attack or something like that, right, we'd be removing the stuff and letting them rest and recover heart attack. Or if a man had a heart attack or something like that, we'd be removing this stuff and letting them rest and recover. And so I guess what my question is based on that comment why do we expect women to bounce back immediately and do it?

Speaker 2: 16:41

all when, in fact, this is an incredibly difficult thing in your body, right, and it's an experience that has consequences for your physical, emotional and mental health. And why are there so many penalties that come from that? And I think that's a social question. Social question, right, because it's a medical experience that then becomes a social experience. And I think you're absolutely right, and we've done a lot of research on sleep specifically, and sleep is so gendered.

Speaker 2: 17:06

Women need more sleep. We have a podcast on this too. Women need more sleep. Biologically, you need more sleep, right, and yet what we can see is that children are incredibly disruptive to women's sleep, not men, men's, even if they're working. We had one study where we showed, even when they were working, they were like had the same professional leadership jobs. The kids were disruptive to the mom's sleep and not the dad's. So sleep is a social contract we have with each other, and so how do we make sure that we think about that in the way we think about maybe housework or time and employment, or health and wellbeing, and how do we negotiate who gets the right to rest? I think is a really important question.

Speaker 1: 17:44

I tell all my friends to get a night nurse.

Speaker 2: 17:47

But isn't that interesting? Sorry, can I jump in on that? Isn't it interesting that there are all these kinds of solutions and things that have developed over time and in different countries that we've totally eradicated and been like no, no, no, I would never do that, because I'm a good mother and good mothers are always available to their children, and good mothers are always present when the kids are up, when my child needs anything, because I'm quote, unquote good, I'm available. And yet we're stressed, we're overwhelmed, the mental load's high, like we're unwell, and we've knocked out all of these supports that have existed in our country in the past or exist in other countries to help support this incredible amount of work that comes from motherhood. Isn't that interesting? Why do we do that?

Speaker 1: 18:27

I mean, I have talked to this one. I met her at a social event. She asked what I do and I was just giving her the low down and she was pregnant and she said you know, I just feel like I can't ask for help already and I said whoa, whoa, whoa. I said let me tell you. I said I hit rock bottom because I didn't want to ask for help. I suffered, which ultimately led to my family suffering, and I said it's very much like you got to put your mask on first on the airplane. I said I know it feels so against the grain, and that's what we really try to normalize here on this podcast and in real life, when I'm talking to people is for the baby to be well. They mom it's all studies show if mom is supported, if she is mentally okay, if she's sleeping, if she's eating, baby's going to be good.

Speaker 2: 19:09

I agree on that, and we've made parenthood so individualized We've decided that it no longer takes a village, but you as an individual have to do it all and you better get it right. My God, is there any other moment where we do that Right? Like? Is there any other? Like if you show up at work, are people like we're not here as a team, you're on your own, Good luck, and if you mess up, you're on your own? It's interesting. It's like this one location where we put all the pressure on the individual mom, and I can't think of any other circumstance where we do that socially.

Speaker 1: 19:41

No, you're so right, I never. I mean I'm obsessed with, like all your podcast topics, but the mom flu, because we've heard of dad sickness or, like you know, man illness. That was like mom flu and currently it seems like every day I'm hearing from school or my kids being like so-and-so's out with the flu, So-and-so's out with this, you know, and honestly, I looked about a week ahead in my work schedule and go, oh gosh, which one's going to you know which one's going to take me out, Because I loved your point of moms do get sick more, because we are those like. We're the ones catching the throw up, we're the ones taking the coughs to the face and it's not well.

Speaker 2: 20:20

Thank you very much. Thank you very much. This is my like. I just had this vision of you. Know, if moms are always the ones that are picking up the Kleenexes, they're always the ones who are being exposed, right? There's always this proximity to care that then opens you up, that then impacts your work. Everything you're saying right is, I think, spot on in terms of then your work life gets disrupted and you're the one who steps out. I have a PhD student here, amy Robb, who did this great PhD and she's working with a team at UCLA and has done incredible work for a very long period of time. Talking about where's the thick lead for care, right, like, how do you make sure people have access to that? What does it look across the country? And I think her point really was like, hey, we saw the value of having thick leave to be a caregiver for those who are ill during COVID, where we'll have long-term illness and we're isolating et cetera et cetera.

Speaker 2: 21:08

But there's a lot of parents that have kids that are managing long-term illnesses or even this stuff, where you're the person most likely to step out of work to care for the kids. How do you make sure that you have paid sick leave to make that work so you don't have to step out of your job or your career forever? I have a colleague who told me that in Belgium they send a nurse to come sit with the sick kids so that the parents can still work, and I don't know about you.

Speaker 2: 21:34

but I mean, I've had sick kids.

Speaker 2: 21:39

I have a daughter who sometimes gets ill, and the kids get ill and then, of course, you get ill, but while they're ill, there's a lot of idle time, like you're just sitting there while they sleep or sit and bring in them juice or whatever right, like it's very much dead time which, in theory, someone else could actually be doing when they're sleeping the whole time, if you do need to be at your job.

Speaker 2: 21:56

So this is another way in which I think there's such an emphasis in the us in particular about we're individuals and we solve our individual problems, so we would never ask for help, we would never identify solutions, and what that means is that you end up with the individual consequences that and you erode all these wonderful ways in which we can lean into community and we can care for each other and we can help and support in ways that maybe aren't that consequential for me and could be incredible help for you. And so I think there is a moment of why don't we start thinking about this? We have to reduce the shame about I'm not perfect, drop that and ask people in to help, and then, if you get asked to help and you can't't.

Speaker 2: 22:32

we need to get our boundaries firm and be able to say no when we can't, so we don't feel like we're being railroaded and no women a lot of times can't say no, so I'm going to give you power to say now but this is my long way of saying I think the mom flu is real and I think moms get illness, probably at higher instances, in part because they step in and pick up all the boogers and that's the answer, and do the dishes, do the very dishes, and receive the call, and we should talk about what that means for their health and wellbeing long-term and also their careers.

Speaker 1: 23:01

No, you're spot on. I think I love that you mentioned about your daughter. So I think our listeners we always try to ask our guests right, who are moms, and you know you're doing the studies, you're in it how do you manage the burnout, the mental load Like what does this look like for you? Like what can we absorb of your knowledge day to day that we can implement, or maybe reframe, or just we just want? We love taking tidbits and like rolling with them.

Speaker 2: 23:28

Okay, well, I'm going to let you in on a baby secret first. I don't have it all figured out, so, unfortunately, like I don't have it all figured out and I don't have it all equal, so that's, that's one answer. Don't worry, I'm in no way perfect. I'm actually fully flawed. Listeners out there, even with all the research, even with all the research, I can't figure a little bit out. I'm flawed and I'm imperfect.

Speaker 2: 23:57

I think what's kind of nice about having a loan, right, it helps you go like, oh, this isn't me, like this is me, this isn't just me, this is actually part. We've set this up this way and I can't tell you how many mothers and friends of mine and knowing what I do, who have that transition into parenthood and then come to me and go, wow, no one could have prepared me for this. Right, I have a great husband. He's, you know, wants to be a co-parent, he's an equal share, and I, somehow, my kid only wants me, right, like I don't, I didn't know this was going to happen to me and this is so hard. And so I think that acknowledging right that like it is so hard, a that transition into parenthood, we have another study.

Speaker 2: 24:38

All I want to do is tell you about all my studies, but we have another study where we showed that the transition into parenthood increased the feelings of time pressure for mothers and fathers. So once you have that first kid, you feel like you don't have enough time. And feeling like you don't have enough time leads to feelings of worse mental health, that feeling of never having enough. Worse mental health. When mothers transition into parenthood, they report they don't have enough time and that leads to worse mental health.

Speaker 2: 25:02

When they have that second child, that feeling of time pressure doubles, so it goes up again. So we often think about economies of scale. You have one baby. The second will be easy because you already had the first. Our research doesn't show that. It shows actually the second makes you feel twice as time pressured and that's leading to worse mental health. And so I think there's this expectation that this might long ways we trade all this nonsense sometimes.

Speaker 2: 25:27

All this nonsense and folklore. Right, Like men are dirt blind, Women are. You know, the first child is second child is easier than the first. It's like our research doesn't show that. It shows actually that it's harder. And I think one of the things that sociology does or do, the research that allows me to go oh, that's nonsense and get rid of it. That's nonsense and get rid of it.

Speaker 3: 25:47

That's nonsense, and get rid of it.

Speaker 2: 25:48

And that's why I started the podcast, because I wanted to be able to take all these kind of gender myths that we say to each other and let's test them and see if they're true, so at least some of us can start to have insights into that and you can start to go like you said oh, I know, now my husband can find the keys, you can see him. And one of my friends said you know, I stopped doing the work. And my husband her husband said you used to be so good at that, but you're no longer good at that. She's like no, no, I just stopped doing it for you. And so there's moments where you can do those little shifts right in your relationship and decide whether you're going to do the things that we're told you have to do or not, and face the penalties, and that is my gift to you all. This is hard. Pick and choose what you want to do, learn when it's nonsense and decide whether you want to step in and keep doing or you don't, oh, love that.

Speaker 1: 26:39

That is like zing, I love that and this is okay. So this is a different kind of question. Don't have to go. You know it can be with your research it could just be like you as mom. So we always ask our guests. At the very end we say what's one thing that now Leah, being a mother she's got her veteran hat on, she knows what motherhood's like Would tell yourself when you first found out you were pregnant about motherhood that you wish you would have known or you wish somebody would have told you it's all going to be okay.

Speaker 2: 27:08

Oh, I don't know, maybe that's too. No, I think it's perfect, it's all going to be okay. I think there's a lot of pressure on mothers to get it right from inception. And then the other thing sorry, it's all going to be okay. And maybe don't read as much on the scary stuff. Is that a bad thing? Be a little less informed. Let it all kind of evolve. Don't anticipate everything that could go wrong. I used to think you know what? My child has some responsibility in this too. Like I'm helping her live, she's got to help herself live. We all got to, we all have responsibility in this, and I can't read everything that can go wrong, because then I just don't enjoy the experience. That becomes really hard.

Speaker 2: 27:44

That said if you're a child who has severe illness or disability, or yes, then of course arm yourself with all the knowledge. I don't want to be sounding insensitive. It's very easy for me to say that if I have a healthy child, but acquire only the knowledge that you really need in the moment in time and don't get it all, because I think it can be overwhelming and it can just make you feel like the sky's falling at all moments in time and then you don't enjoy the experience. Is that a terrible answer?

Speaker 1: 28:13

No, I think it's a great answer because I do think, too, society tells us again right, it's like you going back to the beginning of our conversation we got to know those vaccination schedules. We got to know when soccer sign up is. We got to know, oh gosh, is that a rash? What is that? Okay, we're going down this way. You know it's just, it's that again, we have to know it all. We have to be the best mom, we have to catch it early. You know it's. If it's not us, no one. It goes back to feeding that. And we have Google right that, like centuries ago they didn't have it, so it wasn't like we could doom scroll or Google doom scroll down. So I think that's a perfect answer.

Speaker 2: 28:47

Yeah, and parenting is risky right?

Speaker 1: 28:49

Sorry, oh, my gosh no. Google just okay, Google's hearing us.

Speaker 2: 28:52

I was like parenting is kind of risky. No, no, no, husbands, what are we going?

Speaker 3: 28:57

to do Google is trying.

Speaker 2: 28:58

We need to go away on a retreat.

Speaker 1: 28:59

Well, it's because I'm telling them not to Google, and Google is like you are trying to ruin my market shares and I'm going to interrupt your podcast.

Speaker 2: 29:10

We hear you, google.

Speaker 1: 29:11

We respect you, no, we don't we only use you at 2am, when we're having high anxiety about things?

Speaker 2: 29:17

Like leave us alone during the day. Yeah, and also it takes a village right Like it takes community. I think we're really quick to knock out our community because we want everything to be perfect and it's like it won't be perfect. So find your boundaries, but also be it isn't. So figure out how to let it. Let everybody in, not everybody. Let people in Trusted, respected people in.

Speaker 1: 29:41

I love that. So tell us where we can find more of you, and we're so excited about your book coming up. But what can fly us over until then?

Speaker 2: 29:50

I love you. Thank you very much. I love you for asking this question. Okay, dear everyone in the world who's listening to this. So my goal is to give you research in a clear, digestible, easy way. In order to do that, you can find I have Misperceived Podcast. That's on Spotify, apple and everything I also have at Misperceived Podcast on Instagram, at Profilia on Instagram and my LinkedIn, I'm sharing stuff too, and then you will be lucky enough thank you very much to get to read Drained, which will be coming out Penguin Random House, us 2026. And then, hopefully, you'll see me on Oprah. Who else is big? Ricky Lake, I don't know, I got to think about who's the big people. I'm going to go back to 1990. I'm sorry, drew Barrymore. See, I'm just manifesting right now. Now, I'm just manifesting, so fingers crossed and maybe even the Today Show, I don't know. Let's see. Mark my words and then we'll come back and see if my dreams came true.

Speaker 1: 30:48

Well, we will definitely have you back anytime you want and we'll definitely bring you back for the book and make sure everybody knows. But we're so appreciative and please keep doing what you're doing, Like you know, you got like a mom army who's cheering you on every time you put out that research. We're like keep going, Tell us the truth. So we so appreciate you.

Speaker 2: 31:08

Thank you very much. I love and appreciate you all. And just to be clear, I see the work and I know it's hard, so I respect you and I see you and keep going, but with a little bit more levity, light and fun. Take some of the pressure off.

Speaker 1: 31:22

I love that. Okay, guys, thank you so much for tuning in. I will link all Aaliyah's stuff because I know we're all multitasking and we don't need to add to your mental load. So you just go to our show notes and everything will be there. Okay, guys, have a great week. See you next week.

Speaker 3: 31:39

Maternal mental health is as important as physical health. The Preview Alliance podcast was created for and by moms dealing with postpartum depression and all its variables, like anxiety, anger and even apathy. Hosted by CEO founder Sarah Parkhurst and licensed clinical social worker Whitney Gay, each episode focuses on specific issues relevant to pregnancy and postpartum. Join us and hear how other moms have overcome mental health challenges, as well as access tips and suggestions on dealing with your own challenges as moms. You can also browse our podcast library and listen to previous episodes at any time. Please know you're not alone on this journey. We're here to help.