Speaker 1: 0:10

Hi guys, welcome to the Preview Alliance podcast. This is Sarah, and today I'm super excited to speak to Lori Sugarman Lee, who she is going to be talking to us today about something she's very passionate about and that is bringing the visibility of unpaid work to the table and doing a culture shift within families to really value and care for each other in our shared space. She's a mom of two and she's a coach, speaker and author. Okay, guys, welcome, lori. I'm so excited to have you on today. I'm thrilled to be with you. Okay, so I know a little bit about you because I love doing my research, for you know the podcast and I know about Fair Play, and I want you to take a minute to our audience and introduce yourself and just kind of tell us what inspired you to become what you are today the advocate you are, and maybe even you know let's start the conversation too of why it's mostly impactful for women that we're going to be talking about Absolutely.

Speaker 2: 1:14

So I started with a 15-year career in marketing and strategy and when I had my first child where I was working at the time for Seasons Hotels and Resorts which was a fabulous gig pre-baby, With all the travel and everything ended up being a little tricky with a baby. So I decided to lean into my unpaid career, that of focused care of my family and community, a lot of charity and whatnot. And in that time, actually as a family, we moved internationally twice. We lived in London, England, for four years and then we relocated to Chicago, which is where I am now.

Speaker 2: 1:48

When we landed in the US, we had to redo all of our sort of founding family documents, wills, insurance and whatnot. And so my husband said to me you know what? You're really heading up our family here. We don't have a safety net, We've just moved, we don't have any family. Let's get you disability insurance so that if, God forbid, something happens to you, we have a cushion. He said I can come and take the lead on family. So I thought, okay, terrific. So I went through all the rigmarole of applications and medical forms and everything, only to be rejected. And the insurance agent said to me you're just a housewife. If something happens to you, there's no tangible loss, right? You don't even fall on our algorithm because you don't receive a salary.

Speaker 2: 2:33

And it was one of those like cartoon moments where the smoke started coming out of my ears and the flames like came out of my nose.

Speaker 2: 2:41

And I looked at this man and I was like, sir, do you have any idea what I do in a day?

Speaker 2: 2:47

And it was sort of this bubble bursting moment for me of the sort of systemic devaluing of the work of care which we know is primarily carried on the shoulders of women. And I couldn't unhear his words and I realized that in that moment that I had become a part of this conversation and I needed to continue it, to sort of reach out and not only support other women who were feeling devalued in this way, but to impact change in society. And so I started writing and studying and connecting with folks. I found Eve Rodsky's Fair Play. I became a Fair Play accredited facilitator and a family coach and I loved so much the impact that I was having family to family in supporting them in evolving sort of how they view and value the work of care in their own homes and I saw an opportunity for myself to do something on a broader scale, and that's when I realized I could impact the next generation and how they view the work of care, and so I wrote a children's book called Our Home.

Speaker 1: 3:58

I love all that and I often find the most successful, impactful and relatable kind of career shifts or, you know, entrepreneurship, go down, is personal experience, right and that really drives you and I was. I've been told several times, you know I would have quit X and it could be anything from chefs to construction if I didn't personally believe and experience it. So I love that you're so mission-based. I hate that. You experienced that horrific kind of like you're worthless essentially if you don't have X, y, z job, but you've turned this into something that is so impactful for so many moms. And I think one question people might be saying how do we get so off balance, lori? Like where did this go from? You know, quote unquote a shared home to women having the heavy load here.

Speaker 2: 4:48

So first thing I want to say to anyone listening is if you're, if you're feeling this deeply, you are not alone.

Speaker 2: 4:54

This is like a universal issue that is really driven by these societal definitions and expectations that have been ingrained in us. Really, that women have this socially appointed role to absorb the stresses of our family and of our community and that we are expected to show up in this capacity as a labor of love, right. That we shouldn't expect it to be really recognized or valued, that it is our duty to provide this care, and also these, the way that women have been defined as having some kind of like magical intuition, magical instinct, right For providing care. That, like you know, in saying that we have it sort of presumes that men don't, which is not based in any science at all Right, but that there's this thing as, like mama knows best. Right, like the motherhood instinct, baby wants mama.

Speaker 2: 5:47

But what we know from research is that not only are men beautiful, capable caregivers, but that children's wellness benefit from being cared for by, like you know, a male figure in their life, and also men's wellness improves. And so we have to move away from these really traditional, harmful definitions and expectations that are compounding onto the expectations of women and impacting their wellness and move into an understanding that this is the work of rituals of care that we express from all and to all, and that includes children understanding that they are purveyors of care as well. It's so magical for them to understand that.

Speaker 1: 6:32

You know, I tell people all the time I'm like I don't think anybody prepared me for motherhood and that shift of everything I was doing pre-mom Sarah, I was expected to do with caring for a human right and then I feel like society really loves to press on us. You're a super mom.

Speaker 3: 6:51

You're a superhero.

Speaker 1: 6:52

And it's so toxic and it's gaslighting because when you say I'm drowning here, or like you look around and you're like well, sally down the block does it all and I'm sitting here complaining. So do you think the Instagram, the cultural, this is where we're at? How does that play with your clients when you're speaking them just saying, like Lori, I just think everybody else can do it. What I can't, or like, where am I missing it?

Speaker 2: 7:19

Yeah. So here's the reality when you talk about Instagram versus reality is that 80% of autoimmune diseases are being diagnosed in women, again compounded by this stress and pressure that society puts on us. In addition to this, women are expressing twice as many instances of stress, anxiety and depression-related disorders. And I say women, but we see all this sparked in girls as young as eight, and it is so important to break this cycle. Women have five fewer hours of leisure time per week than men, also seen in young girls, and so when a woman looks like she's carrying it all, this is really what's happening underneath, and every family is different.

Speaker 2: 8:06

Every family should believe that they can be different.

Speaker 2: 8:09

I mean we should flow in whatever way is driven by our own values, and Sally down the street may be driven by different objectives and different values for her own family.

Speaker 2: 8:22

The comparison is where we really get stuck, right, and so if we, instead of watching others, come back into our special little unit right and recognize that we get to decide how we want to flow and neck with our family about what our values are, what makes us feel safe, what makes us feel the joy in our daily life and also understanding in our family, we're all wired so differently for task accomplishment and the way we move through the world, and even what we need from our space, and so forget about what anyone else is doing right, because they have different tools in the toolbox. What's really important to understand is that, while a lot of the issues that we're talking today are sort of up here at a societal level, that the cure right or the way we can address them is very, very, very micro, very local to us. We can decide again how we want to flow as a family and it's all based in what we decide our values are and then having a great structure to translate those values into a system that works for us.

Speaker 1: 9:39

And I think this is a really good time to talk more about your book, because I have fully enjoyed reading it. I've read it to my tool. I'm a boy mom, like you. So, I'm a big believer that it starts with us.

Speaker 1: 9:51

Right the boy mom to break this and girl moms too, but specifically this old school traditional. You know I'm in the South where it's. You know I was at a shower this past weekend and a woman was discussing about how her mother-in-law I mean she's postpartum, maybe a week goes. When are you going to honor your husband with a meal? And it's very much that mentality that's put upon us. So we are saying we do the hard work with the generational cycle breakers, but I love how the concept of joining forces together we all care for our shared space. So talk to us what inspired the book, how we should use the book, and just you know, because I think we all want to be different, but we're like, hey, lori, where do we start?

Speaker 2: 10:34

Yeah, well, what I recognized is that not only does 75% of the execution of supporting a home and a family fall unto women, but also the vast majority of the mental and the emotional load, right, which tends to be invisible to those in your space. And that includes starting this conversation about how to bring your children into this beautiful yet heavy load. And I wanted to provide a tool for parents typically mothers, right? It's very often mothers who are listening to the parenting podcasts and reading the parenting books and wanting sort of all the data and information on how to do this as best as we can. And I thought how can I make it easier for parents, moms to start the conversation with their kids, to explain to them that, you know, there's an opportunity really to stop talking about this beautiful work as chores or really speak of it as expressions of gratitude for all that we have and those with whom we share a space, and really to reframe it as something that we all do together.

Speaker 2: 11:49

It's not this, you know. Very often families will say, well, let's do what we have to do so that we can do what we want to do. But I'll tell you what a lot of my favorite memories of time with my dad were of sweeping the garage together or setting up the backyard lawn furniture together after winter. I grew up in Canada, and so this work of home and care can be the stuff that we want to do that bonds us, where we share our knowledge, where we empower our kids and where we really connect.

Speaker 1: 12:21

What can your day-to-day with your boys like where did you, what was the first kind of conversations that you had, how, what were their ages? Kind of give us some insight of how the pro here did it.

Speaker 2: 12:32

So if you're interested in seeing some examples, check out my Instagram, which is at our home, our pride. My kids are super supportive about me filming and sharing little moments in our home. Where we have approached this have little kids, perfect time to start. There is a research to show that children as young as three who get involved in the work of home may exhibit higher self-esteem, be more responsible, better equipped to deal with frustration, adversity, and these skills really do impact their success in school and work and relationships. But anyone who might have an older child, even a teenager, it's never too late to say. I was listening to this podcast and I got such a great idea and I realized we haven't been doing this. Would you be open to talking about it now? And it's really about, as I said before, understanding your kids' wiring, understand how they thrive, understand what their capacity is and then find little opportunities for task engagement that match their skills, match their passions and give them things where they will be likely to complete it right and to feel some self-esteem.

Speaker 2: 13:52

So I have one son. He's 12 now, but he's been doing this for ages. He's a super organizer right, this is a skill of his, so I bring him in when I'm unloading the groceries to watch me at first, and now he actually does it independently. He knows where everything goes. He understands how to organize things so that the newer items are at the back of the row right, so that we use the older stuff first.

Speaker 2: 14:17

And then my other son is really, really motivated by music. He loves doing any task where he can wear his headphones, and he also happens to be my delightful kid who makes a lot of crumbs when he eats. So from early on he's been doing the vacuuming right, and what they realize is these things are actually not that hard and they don't take that long. It's just that when we refer to them as chores and we only talk about them as a long list that's in the way of doing the things that are fun it has an energy of dread. Our opportunity is to shift the energy around right, collaborate as a team and then do something fun after all together to say like, yeah, we've accomplished something meaningful, we're all expressing care for one another and now we get to do something great.

Speaker 1: 15:11

I love that. So what I'm thinking, and probably listeners are thinking I can get my kids on board, lori. What about my partner? What about my husband, who we've been in this relationship for X amount of times? Or maybe this is what his mom did, or this is kind of I maybe wanted to prove I was a good wife, so I took on the burden. Now, yes, we do. What do you speak to that?

Speaker 2: 15:35

Yeah. So I think what you said about you know how your partner may have grown up is really such a fascinating element of this. And, you know, prior to marriage we do have so many important conversations about how we feel about religion or how we feel about children, but one thing that's been really missing from that is a conversation around, like you know, domestic labor, and what we see happening is that even partners who do have sort of an equitable approach before kids once kids come, men and women do really tend to be led by these societal definitions of like okay, now the woman steps in and takes over because the man just doesn't have the instinct or the skills, and so it's really a lot of unlearning that has to happen. And, yes, in many occasions it's the woman who starts this conversation and, depending on your partner, you can approach that differently. And, as a coach, it's a very sort of customized support system that I provide to people, depending on where they're starting, but a system like Fair Play or there's a lot of actually great phone apps now that provide structures for these conversations and for how to divide work ongoing, but really it's approaching it as an understanding of the impact to family wellness that inequity has and, depending on what your husband is compelled by, if it's stats, if it's more like of an emotional argument, it's really just helping him understand that, like, your family isn't thriving optimally in the way that it's flowing right now, and you know you can talk about the personal impact to you too, but if a mother isn't well, the family isn't well and so your partner.

Speaker 2: 17:19

I don't want to use the word obligation, but there's a commitment there that you made when you had children to want to thrive together and this is a part of it. And the idea is that with shifting language, with implementing a system, you can reduce this stress, you can reduce the resentment that comes with the inequity, and the end result is that actually this work of home and family ends up taking less time overall. Finally, what I encourage my clients to do is not start at a point of like well, how much work do you do and how much work do I do? But start almost backwards from like do we have equal time for rest? Do we have equal time for joy? Do we have equal time for creative pursuits or athletic pursuits or whatever it is that fills us up? And if the answer to that is no, then you need to shake things up a little bit.

Speaker 1: 18:14

Because we hear it all the time, you know bitterness, resentment, I think it's. You know just the fairness they're like it's not fair. And then you know we're passionate about mental health here and then we see, you know, a lot of times, you know, they feel like they can't even speak about the depression or anxiety or OCD that they're experiencing, let alone. It's like everything intertwines. I tell them I'm like you know, if you're not feeling supported, they're like well, you know, I can't even have time. It feels like to be by myself, you know, with the kids. And then how am I going to have therapy or how am I going to take care of myself? So I think it's such a large conversation that needs to be had of when I am experiencing X, y or Z. What is our family routine or structure that is going to allow me to do that without the whole family falling apart?

Speaker 2: 19:06

The other thing I would say to women listening is we are taught that motherhood and giving care are intertwined, but let me give you permission right now to separate those things. And the most beautiful element of motherhood is the relationship that you have with your children, the time that you spend on the joy right. And the connection Caregiving is not your responsibility right. It needs to be figured out and managed, but please release the idea that this is yours to own, that this is all in your backpack. And this is a really important thing for men to understand too is that, when you agree to create this beautiful family, right, this is a strategy that you need to talk about together and, as a facilitator trained in Fair Play, I have many colleagues around the country who do this. We can help couples start these conversations because they are hard.

Speaker 2: 20:09

They are difficult, right, and again, depending if a man was raised watching his mother do it all, right, of course behind the scenes she was like, probably exhausted and utterly depleted, right, but he wouldn't know that because his mother never had like any permission to say so, and so that expectation, that cycle continues, and I think you know the idea that we can say is this what you want for your daughter, right, like, what are we modeling?

Speaker 2: 20:36

You know, you and I are bonding over the fact that we are raising boys and trying to demonstrate for them that they are wanted and needed in this beautiful work of care, that, conversely, if we're raising girls, telling them they can do anything, they could be anything, they could be a rocket scientist, they can be the president, they could do anything Well, we have to make space for that, and the way that we make space is by relieving them of this expectation that they are going to grow up to carry 75% of this work, have five fewer hours of leisure time per week, et cetera, et cetera. And what is a father's role in raising their daughters in this way?

Speaker 1: 21:13

I love that, I love that approach and I think it's teaching them and hopefully, you know their father or the male figure in their life is modeling that. So when they are dating and they're looking for a partner, you know they're looking for those qualities. And again, going back to you know I always tell people there's so many questions you're supposed to ask each other when you're dating and engaged that never get. Or you wish you could kind of peek into their history and you know just see what day-to-day family life was. But all just such things that now we know better to do better, I say and it's hard work. I mean none of this is. And I feel like a lot of women feel like, well, I'm failing right. Or like Lori I would have to say, like I can't do it all. So that to me is failure, like we're perfectionists or type A or we have this task equals, accomplishments equals. Like our identity, roles that can come in, kind of come intertwined in these conversations, of saying I need help is a sign of weakness, which it's not.

Speaker 2: 22:09

So even this word help in and of itself is really tricky, right, because it reinforces this notion that we are the owners of all of this and that we may have, like a fabulous partner who's waiting in the wings to be asked, to be invited, to be given a task, to be given a list.

Speaker 2: 22:29

But the real metamorphosis of a family, the transformation, comes when you stop investing in this model of mothers being the owners and everyone else helping, to a model where actually everybody owns a piece of this and they own it fully, not just the execution, but also the thinking, the planning, the cognitive labor, the mental load, such that the mother can fully release whatever that task is, with faith that it will be completed by someone else. And I should say there is so much gendering in this conversation, right, and that is because, number one, most of the research we have is of male and female relationships, but also because of the societal definitions, it is in male and female relationships where we see the majority of this conflict and this stress. So, but this idea of full ownership of a task and moving away from this notion of me as a mother being helped is really where the magic happens. I love that reframe.

Speaker 1: 23:33

I wondered this myself because I was a stay-at-home mom for a couple of years and I struggled with kind of the question of what do you do for work, and you know very social settings, and I'd sometimes say, well, you know, I was a nurse and you know now I'm kind of saying what I was or I, you know, totally relate to that. How can we answer that? And I mean, there's nothing to be ashamed of this, you know.

Speaker 2: 23:56

Yeah. So I used to get that question all the time in my unpaid stage and what I realized in speaking with this insurance agent who clearly had this perception that this phase of life, this chapter, which really needs a rebrand, the title of stay at home mom is just such a misnomer. Right For the effort and the nonstop activity of this work, but the idea is to begin sharing more, because I think, number one, this is very invisible work and it's very solitary work, right, this stay-at-home mom phase. And the first thing that I did when I realized, oh, this is not understood, is I made myself a LinkedIn page as a stay-at-home mother and I began to think through and frame up all of my contributions, all of my achievements, my daily tasks, everything that had helped me grow and, using the terms that you would use in any kind of a professional assessment of yourself, and the other piece of advice that I give to women so that they will be able to articulate this stage of life in a way that somebody else will understand. Oh, this action, this giving of care, is actually the work that makes all other work possible. Giving of care is actually the work that makes all other work possible.

Speaker 2: 25:19

Is, you know as new moms or young moms. We spent so much time recording the milestones of our baby, of our children, right, when did they laugh? When did they roll? What I say to moms is do the same for yourself. Have your own book where you take note of how you're evolving, what you're learning, how are your daily movements like, morphing, what have you become, what have you achieved, how have you grown? And then, when somebody asks you about your work, you really can talk about it proudly. There's so much involved. In this stage, you know, no matter if a woman does this unpaid work, full time or in addition to paid work which, by the way, women who work outside the home spend more time caring for their children than stay at home mothers did in the 60s. Yeah Right, you will be able to speak of this with as much value as anything that you might do that is paid.

Speaker 1: 26:20

I love that. So where can our listeners find more of you, more of this conversation? Get help. They're like, okay, ding ding ding, this is me. This is me I need it. Like where's the next steps?

Speaker 2: 26:32

Yeah, thank you so much. So my book is called Our Home. It's available anywhere books are sold. My Instagram account is at our home, our pride. And again, when I speak about pride, it's not at all a pride in perfection. It's really a pride in staying connected to your own values and flowing in a way that works for your family, without concern of judgment by anyone else. I'm on LinkedIn as Lori Sugarman Lee and I would love to connect with anyone who may be interested in some facilitation and working through Fair Play or any other structure that makes sense for them. My website is ourhomeourpridecom.

Speaker 1: 27:13

Perfect. Now we ask this question to all our guests. I'm going to ask you you know we've had all sorts of answers, so there's no right or wrong. But what would, lori, now you're a veteran mom, two boys. You've kind of you've been there, seen a lot, done a lot, grown a lot. Tell yourself, when you first got that first pregnancy test, what was advice for your own self about motherhood you wish you would have known?

Speaker 2: 27:34

So two things came to mind for your own self about motherhood you wish you would have known. So two things came to mind. The first is that depletion is not a virtue, and I think I spent so much time as a young mother especially someone who came from quite an intensive professional environment wanting to achieve to that high level, and there was this constant idea that I had to just give everything that I had toward this role of motherhood to be considered good, to get that exceeds rating that I would have gotten in my job before and that really had the opposite effect. It impacted my wellness, which then had a ripple effect onto my family, and it connects to the other point which I alluded to earlier, but that motherhood is not embroiled in caregiving. They are two separate things. Motherhood is a relationship. Motherhood is a connection that you have with your child. Caregiving is beautiful and important and obviously essential, but it is not the role of mothers alone.

Speaker 1: 28:42

I love all that. I'm obsessed with your work, I'm obsessed with this conversation and I know it is going to be so impactful, but thank you for doing the hard work of breaking some cycles here.

Speaker 2: 28:53

It's the greatest pleasure to be with you. Thank you for your amazing work as well.

Speaker 1: 29:01

All right, guys, I will link everything in our show notes, as always, I know you guys are on the go and we will be back next week with a new Preview Alliance podcast. Till then, have a great week.

Speaker 3: 29:09

Maternal mental health is as important as physical health. The Preview Alliance podcast was created for and by moms dealing with postpartum depression and all its variables, like anxiety, anger and even apathy. Hosted by CEO founder Sarah Parkhurst and licensed clinical social worker Whitney Gay, each episode focuses on specific issues relevant to pregnancy and postpartum. Join us and hear how other moms have overcome mental health challenges, as well as access tips and suggestions on dealing with your own challenges as moms. You can also browse our podcast library and listen to previous episodes at any time. Please know you're not alone on this journey. We're here to help.