Speaker 1: 0:10

Hi guys, welcome to Privy Alliance podcast. This is Sarah, and this week, in honor of National Infertility Awareness Week, I have the honor of bringing back Erin and Stephen Mitchell from Couples Counseling for Parents, to talk about how it impacts a couple when you're trying to conceive, walking the road of infertility. So I'm going to give a trigger warning for this episode. If you are not in the right headspace for this, please pause and come back to us next week or listen to us when you're ready. So stay tuned. Hi guys, welcome back to Preview Alliance podcast. And if you guys knew from my intro, our favorite couples back here, stephen Mitchell, couples Counseling for Parents. And this week I am going to say I said in the intro, I'm going to put a trigger warning. We are talking about infertility, trying to conceive. So if you're not in that headspace, it's too close. You may just had a loss or you're just like ah, that's not part of me right now, but take a pause, come back to me already. But Erin, stephen, welcome, thank you.

Speaker 2: 1:11

So much for having us.

Speaker 3: 1:13

Thank you. We always love chatting with you, sarah, so thanks for the opportunity.

Speaker 2: 1:16

We do love talking with you and this is so important. It's so, so important and it's so vulnerable and it's honestly sometimes so hard to talk about. So I think thank you for talking about it.

Speaker 1: 1:28

Well, so this week is National Infertility Awareness Week, so while we will touch on that I think it's well I'll just kind of start at saying, maybe what was each of your guys' impressions like when we're all getting married and it's time to have kids, like how did you think the making children aspect would go, and maybe what was reality, and just kind of bring our listeners to you guys' own experience with that. That's such a good question.

Speaker 3: 1:54

I think on some level, like I didn't think about it at all, I don't think I had an expectation. Aaron and I definitely talked about kids. We wanted to try and have kids, but it also wasn't an immediate thing that we were going to try to do right when we got married, and so there was some time it was like, yeah, well, down the road and that'll be great is how I initially thought about it, I think.

Speaker 2: 2:18

Yeah, when I think about what you thought about, that will be great. Yeah, which?

Speaker 1: 2:21

I think tells a lot.

Speaker 2: 2:22

Well, that's going to be great. When that day comes, that will be great, which I think tells a lot. Well, that's going to be great. When that day comes, that will be a great day and that will be a great season and that will be a great process.

Speaker 2: 2:31

I did not have that, which I think is why I was very aware that you did. But I think for me, I had had very irregular periods my whole life. I saw a pediatric OBGYN when I was in sixth grade. Things were just always a little bit different for me. Turns out at this stage of my life I'm very normal, I just have a normal for me kind of cycle.

Speaker 2: 2:51

But I had been told I mean honestly, from the time I was 12, having a baby could be really hard for you. You don't have as many cycles, they're a lot longer, whatever all these things. So I was just like, oh my gosh, I'm 12. That's a lot of information and I had been scared about it forever. It had always been like I don't know what that will be like, I don't know that my body can do it, I don't know. So I was nervous A little bit. Out from us for a second and we can totally come back in as soon as you want to, but I don't think a lot of couples talk about it. While I do think couples talk about like, do we want kids, I don't think they talk about what they think that could be like at all or, like you said, just the history you know.

Speaker 3: 3:27

So you, as woman who's going to have kids, like you're thinking about that, like your whole life, from the moment that you I mean, I guess, the whole story about, like what it's going to be like to get your period and then be on your period and what that means, and like you have a whole experience of quote unquote childbearing or getting pregnant or trying to conceive, that I don't, I don't, and so, and I think that that is a big disconnect, even in how it's going to be great. And you're like, since sixth grade I've been thinking about this and I'm like, well, I haven't really ever thought about it. I think that that's a big part of it too, that disconnect that then just carries throughout a relationship in so many ways.

Speaker 2: 4:08

I think it can. And then I think to your point, Sarah, like what are people's stories about this? How did you think it would go? What informed that? So yeah, I think it's a really important question.

Speaker 3: 4:19

Yeah.

Speaker 1: 4:20

And it's one of those questions I mean, my husband never had that. You know, I tell people for some parts of your life you try not to get pregnant, right, you're just like, that's your goal. So you both may be like, what is? What are we doing not to have this happen? And then, when it switches, movies, instagram, songs make it so romantic, they make it easy, it's going to be the first time but, like in your situation, you both have different expectations, worries, triggers about this. So when it comes time and the first try and you think you may not even know about ovulation, you may not even know the timeframes and how you don't have great odds of getting pregnant every month and those odds decrease. So what do you guys in your own pro-life and your couples you help see on this challenge of like, okay, it's not happening like in the movies.

Speaker 3: 5:18

Right.

Speaker 1: 5:18

Where do we start separating from a couple and kind of like battling it out?

Speaker 2: 5:24

I think for many couples and I think that this is a I mean, you even said your odds change. So I think I'm going to be really direct and it's probably not universally true, but I think the younger the couple, the less friction between a couple. But I think the older a couple, or at least the older the potentially pregnant person gets, they're very aware of that. That is like a thing that they're thinking of and like we don't even know, and so I think that even then now the conversation about like so we'll just use me and Steven again, like I'm ready, steven's, like we should wait, and I'm like you're asking me to wait and almost guaranteeing it's going to be harder, which isn't actually necessarily true, but that's how we hear it right Like that is the like you're making this harder and you're putting a lot more pressure on me and I think it pressurizes the entire situation immediately.

Speaker 3: 6:12

Yeah, Well, you know, and I think too, there's this whole dynamic. So you're talking about your body and you're talking about sex, and you're talking about some of the most vulnerable, vulnerable parts of who we are as people, right? And so what do we often do with vulnerable things? We don't talk about them. We protect them. Yeah, we protect them. We kind of ah, you know, we don't need to get into that yet and I think that one of the things that is so challenging in trying to conceive and then if there's difficulty, or if there's a pregnancy loss, or if you try to do fertility treatments, all these kinds of things, it's so vulnerable because it's your body, and I think that couples struggle to talk about their bodies.

Speaker 3: 6:56

I think our society, our culture also struggles just to talk about your body when it would be so helpful, your body when it would be so helpful.

Speaker 3: 7:05

So you said you don't even know about ovulation, right? How come For me, someone who identifies as a male, what's the problem with me learning about the female body and learning about ovulation and learning about menstruation and learning about all these kinds of things, because that is vital to this whole process, and yet we don't say like, yeah, you should do that and I think that it's such a that creates some of the vulnerability and intensity and difficulty as well, because I think so much of the struggle trying to conceive or if you're dealing with infertility is if you could just talk openly with your partner about how you feel in your body, whether it's male factor infertility or female factor infertility, all those kinds of things that could be so connective. To be so vulnerable with your partner dealing with such a challenging, hard thing, but to feel so close because you're willing to sit there and be like, hey, I'm talking to you about the most intimate thing and we're okay, we're doing it, we're learning, we're being curious. That could be so healing in a lot of ways.

Speaker 2: 8:15

I think I'm thinking about yes, I think I'm also thinking about the male factors you talked about. I think so often this feels like a female problem. I think it feels like, well, that's in my body, it's my responsibility to chart, it's my responsibility to know where I am in my cycle. And even if, like Stephen, was very involved in all of that because for a long time we were trying not to conceive and Stephen was like I will definitely wake up at 5 am to take your temperature.

Speaker 3: 8:40

And we would chart that. We chose to chart cycles and to understand.

Speaker 2: 8:45

That was something that was recommended to me when we got married, like, oh, if someone has told you it could be harder for you, you should get to know your body as much as you possibly can now. And I was like great idea, but I didn't know to do that. If that one practitioner had not said that I wouldn't have, I would have had no idea.

Speaker 2: 9:02

And you also came to me as my partner and said hey, you need to get to know my body and your body not my job, but it is in my body and I think that's where it's a really I don't know, like I'm just like sort of shaking my body. I know people can't see me, but like it's difficult to explain that Like it is me because it is my body. This cannot be on me exclusively. This has to be an us thing, but there is also, like sperm health, like the health of the man does contribute a great deal to all of this, but that is even lesser talked about and feels somehow way more fragile a conversation for a lot of the couples we talk to you know, I hear this story and it seems like, okay, we're going to start trying right and there may be no plan to it.

Speaker 1: 9:48

And then a couple of months pass and you're just like wait what?

Speaker 1: 9:51

And then I call it. The invisible labor load starts on the woman. Right, she's Googling or she's, and then she's going oh crap, I have to take these ovulation sticks and I'm taking my temperature. She may start sharing that with him, she may not. She may feel like, oh well, I was doing it wrong, right, like well, we're doing the wrong time, so it's my responsibility, it's you know.

Speaker 1: 10:10

Again back to my body, and then maybe the fun of it starts going away, because instead of, oh, spontaneous moment, it is hey, tuesday at noon, buddy, this is when this needs to occur. And then the guy's going like and I know this from personal experience my husband's like. I felt like very used, abused a piece of me and I was like I don't care if this is a common goal, and it felt so hard and we talked about it now, we laugh about it now. We were not laughing at that moment and it felt to me like this is our moment. You can't do something that you should be wanting to do with me in this moment. But he didn't, because he was like you were insane, controlling, crazy woman. You like, basically, give me your sperm, you're right. But I was like I can't go through. In my head. I was like it's a failure no-transcript.

Speaker 3: 11:38

We place the responsibility of having kids on a woman, when, if you choose to try to have kids, the responsibility needs to be on both partners, and I think that that is where things get confused. The reason the you know, if we're talking about mixed gendered relationships, the reason the man feels like a piece of meat, is because the societal script is all you're good for is your sperm. All you do is you impregnate your partner and then you just sit around and wait until the baby comes, like that is.

Speaker 2: 12:09

Well then you keep sitting around.

Speaker 3: 12:10

Yeah right, that's the perspective, Whereas if what we're talking about is you know what, I have a role. I have a role to be healthy. I have a role to be involved in understanding what's happening for my partner. You know how do I help track the cycles, how do I recognize, like, hey, you know what. We need to have sex at 12 on Tuesday, because that's when you're ovulating. And why shouldn't I be the person who's also thinking about that?

Speaker 3: 12:35

And rather than just feeling like a piece of meat or a machine and I get how it happens, I mean, I felt some of the very same things too, so I'm calling myself to a level of accountability in this after the fact, but how can you look at the processes? This is a collaboration between the two of us to move towards something that we both desire and want, in that, in our work together, there can be connection and intimacy, and I think that that's another thing. Getting pregnant is working together with your partner. It isn't just like some magic, like yeah, all that, and it can be that too. But I think our perspective is just wrong about the whole process.

Speaker 2: 13:19

So, and I think part of why I would say a large part of why especially in the when it isn't just that my mom used to say like oh my gosh, you know your why I would say a large part of why, especially when it isn't just that my mom used to say like oh my gosh, your aunt, she would sneeze and get pregnant. I think we all have these sort of like little anecdotal things like oh yeah, they just talk about getting pregnant and she's pregnant or whatever. That one are not entirely unhelpful, because we never know what is happening for any couple ever, even when you think you know and we have learned this about people because like oh my gosh, we thought we knew and we didn't know, and same for us. But we're talking about fear and we're talking about desire, and you referenced this earlier, stephen. But when we're wanting something so much and we don't know if we're going to be able to get it, we have lost control and this is a coming to grips with. We don't have control. Like we have a lot of things we can do, we have a lot of options and that we're growing in those, but we can't just decide to get pregnant and get pregnant.

Speaker 2: 14:13

That's not how it works and I think that people do different things than that. That's a nervous system reaction and I think we aren't talking about that. So some of us sounds like the Sarahs, certainly the Aarons we get informed, we get proactive, we get on a schedule, we get like there's probably some alerts in your phone like and that is a heightened so we would say that partner has elevated. We may not say that that's a stress response, we might say that's just a good idea, but it is a good idea. Perhaps it is also a stress response and very often couples are balance seeking and so that other partner not on purpose, not to try to disengage, but like what's the point of us both elevating? I'm not trying to make you worse. So I do think and not that intentions excuse impact, but I think the intention of like hey, let's just calm this down, let's just like whoa, is an attempt to try to be a kind partner. I think it is perceived.

Speaker 2: 15:10

I think it is felt. I think really the impact is like you're leaving me alone here. I'm alone and the other person feels like I'm just trying not to make it worse, I'm just trying to be like, hey, I'm steady, I got this.

Speaker 3: 15:22

When you're battling, because I think-.

Speaker 2: 15:23

And so they down-.

Speaker 3: 15:25

Right, they downregulate. Right they down and I mean, I remember we had interactions and conversations oh, month after month of downregulation, escalation all of it. Well, really, you were just like. I'm just asking for you to be engaged Right At a level that feels commensurate with mine, and I think for me my thought would be like well, you're too engaged about this, You're too anxious about this, but the reality is and don't you know?

Speaker 2: 15:50

there's research that says if you would chill out your cycle would-.

Speaker 3: 15:55

Well, and I think again that goes back to the whole perception of. I am missing a whole story that is happening for Erin in this process of like what it means to have kids, and she is not overanxious. She has a different experience, a different reality, her body is engaged in a very different way and she's just sitting there saying don't you get that? And I'm like, hey, why don't you just calm down? And that's so unhelpful.

Speaker 2: 16:25

But we both don't know our stories. That's not what I'm saying.

Speaker 2: 16:28

I'm not saying I'm so scared and there's so much happening in my body and I wish you'd be with me. I'm like, hey, I forget how you said it, but something like hey, bud, tuesday 12th, and read, you know, like the subtext, and that is I'm so nervous. You're with me, right, like you're going to be there, you're, you're, we're still in this together, right. But that's not the direct text. That is so hard to know that direct text because we're scared, we're really scared. We feel so vulnerable. It is such a vulnerable time in a couple relationship.

Speaker 3: 16:56

Yeah.

Speaker 1: 16:57

And it takes. I do have couples who say you know, all the fun's out of it, all the passion's out of it, and where do we go from here? Because then you both shut down and you have to try for a certain amount, depending on your age, months right To get pregnant before the doctor will go. So what do you tell those couples who are like, okay, we've got a couple more months to try, but we don't feel like trying, we fight. You know, the leading up week is hell. The two-week wait, oh yes we all are.

Speaker 1: 17:26

You know, am I pregnant? Is that a twitch? Is that implantation totally, and when the period comes, we both mourn together. Or she mourns and he goes and kind of disassociates, or you know what do you tell him in that moment?

Speaker 2: 17:39

Yes. Well, I think to probably overstate, but I think that there are ways to connect in that stress, but only if you're willing to engage with yourself. But we don't want to. I mean anyone who would be like, I don't want to. I don't blame you, so I just want to say like, maybe do as I say, not as I did, because it's vulnerable.

Speaker 2: 17:55

We can't just walk around just raw and exposed all the time. We do have to protect ourselves in some way, but we also have to have moments with our partner and with ourselves where we are allowing ourselves to acknowledge. What is the fear here? What is the desire? What are we hoping for? What stories are we telling ourselves about ourselves, also about our partner? I think it's also really worth noting at least for me, this was a big time. Part of our conversation about this isn't fun, like. Remember when sex was fun and like we liked it and it was. Some of us have internal sex organs and some of us have external sex organs, and that was a time when we were trying to get pregnant that I was so grateful for an internal sex organ. Steve was like all you have to do is lay there, like you're not into this.

Speaker 2: 18:41

You're not even pretending to be into this, Like, how am I supposed to be into this? You're like, literally like a, and I'm like yeah you're right and I'm not into it. This is not because I'm attracted to you. This is not because I particularly even like you. This is a stated goal. We have an objective and get to work, and I think how do you make something work? Can you feel this way?

Speaker 3: 19:01

It's so tough.

Speaker 2: 19:01

Yeah, and I mean, we're able to laugh about it now and I think you said this in the beginning too it's like funny now, but it wasn't funny then On some level too.

Speaker 3: 19:16

I mean, it's such a good question, and I think where we often interact with couples is after all of this has happened Because, to your point, Erin in the midst of trying to get pregnant, or if there's infertility, or if there's pregnancy loss, combination of all of those things, it is survival. It's so chocked, full of vulnerability, intimacy, grief, and in some ways, it's so hard to be engaged and to be thoughtful and to say hey, this is what.

Speaker 3: 19:39

I'm feeling, and many times couples come to us after they are done trying or they've finally been able to have a kid or kids, and then they're processing all of this after the fact.

Speaker 2: 19:52

Yes, because it doesn't go away.

Speaker 3: 19:53

And it doesn't, and I think that that can be done. I think that that's really important.

Speaker 3: 19:58

The processing you mean the processing after the fact. But I do think again, one of the things that could help in the moment, in the actual experience of it, is for partners to have a shift in their view of what they're doing. It's not your responsibility or my responsibility, it is our responsibility. It is our opportunity to do something special together and it's hard and there's a lot of hard work, and then it's learning the language of what can I do to communicate to you that I'm engaged and I'm with you in your experience of this journey and I think that that's really tough because it's like man that takes some work.

Speaker 3: 20:40

before, like you said, like what were your expectations and what did you think about? Like well, yeah, there needs to be that question.

Speaker 2: 20:48

It's also never too late for that question.

Speaker 3: 20:51

And a processing during and I know a lot of infertility clinics have mental health practitioners or individuals who are working with couples during this period of time.

Speaker 2: 21:02

A lot, don't though, yeah, but.

Speaker 3: 21:03

I think that there's a very specific part of story discovery and understand, like Erin said, the story like oh, my aunt sneezed and she got pregnant. Those stories are really important to know and there has to be someone helping couples process those things, because that is informing how someone feels about their infertility. Oh, you know, I'm really broken. I can't just sneeze and get pregnant. There's something really wrong with me.

Speaker 3: 21:26

And so I think that there's things you can do before, during and after. I just think it's so hard at times because it's so chock full of grief and loss and hope and desire, and it's just hard to be engaged with yourself.

Speaker 2: 21:38

The other thing that stands out to me as you're talking, is how much and we had to do this too but like setting some parameters about when we talk, when we don't, when we I mean even for myself, I, because I was always I'm trying to think if we ever, in our trying to conceive phases, if I was ever not the one who was at the elevated energy levels that my stress would go up, but I was having a hard time thinking about anything else.

Speaker 2: 22:04

My brain space was 99.99999% of the time occupied with. I mean, I was in every like the two week weight club, the trying to conceive club, that you know, all these moments every month, and I don't think that's bad. I don't look back on myself and regret that or think like, oh gosh, you really should have done it better. But I do think, partners, it starts to be like this is the only thing we talk about. And I think a lot of times and I don't think that has to be bad.

Speaker 2: 22:31

I'm not trying to say so if someone's listening and like that is the only thing we talk about or is the only thing I think about, I think that can be okay. But I think being able to even openly talk about that. But sometimes it is helpful to establish some boundaries, like you know what, on Tuesdays we don't talk about that. Or I try really hard to only check any of my little clubs, or you know my temperatures, or check my chart only in the morning, or whatever is your own good boundary and to do your best to try to commit to that and then be open about that. We tell couples all the time, like a Sunday night check-in or whatever night check-in, it doesn't really matter.

Speaker 3: 23:07

Yeah, like you could have your pregnancy team meeting. We're going to set Tuesdays where we don't talk about it. I mean, that's a great idea. You can also set like hey, on Sunday night we are going to talk about it, so we can ask all the questions, we can check in with each other. If I've been thinking about something this week, like I hold on to it until then so that you just know that. You know, and it doesn't mean you can't talk about these things outside of it. But you can even be like hey, this conversation feels like for our Sunday night team, you know, pregnancy team meeting. Like, can we hold it till then? Like I'm just not ready to like give the energy I want to give to it.

Speaker 2: 23:44

Or the best deserves, because I think when we polarize each other, which is what happens to most couples, we are balance seeking people, so the person who is escalated- is elevated, they feel like I have to try to get some sort of feedback. Engage, engage, engage engage like say something, do something Truly, and it's terrible for me, but the more I do that, the more Stephen disengages, and the more Stephen disengages, the more I do that.

Speaker 3: 24:09

Because it feels like, on the other end, it feels controlling or it feels overwhelming, or it feels like all of those kinds of things I really do think that what we hear and I mean you're that person, but I also think that people think-. You don't want to make it worse.

Speaker 2: 24:21

I don't want to make it worse. The best thing I can really do for them is to just stay low and calm, and it's truly almost always the worst. But if we can just elevate to a neutral place, so like if I know that on Sunday Stephen's going to come and he's going to have things to say and he's going to, you know, tell me about what he's been thinking, and it soothes me, it really does bring me down and I think that someone has to start, because everybody's like oh no, I'm not going to elevate, because if I elevate it's going to send her through the roof and I'm like I'm not going to talk about it. So I think that it really has to be that person who tends to go down, it is their job to come up first. It really, I think, almost always has to be, because that person who's already escalated has to know like oh, oh, you're consistently doing this, you're still okay, you're checking in.

Speaker 3: 25:08

And then that soothes me. That helps that down regulator. Know you know what if I actually engage?

Speaker 2: 25:14

And not just once. There has to be some pattern.

Speaker 3: 25:18

Consistently. If I do that, it actually helps my partner feel at ease, which also helps me not feel overwhelmed, because there's some level of collaboration around how we're doing this. And, you know, there's uncertainty about if we're going to get pregnant or not, but there's at least certainty that we're going to talk about it and how we talk about it.

Speaker 2: 25:39

And that helps this feeling of we are doing it together.

Speaker 3: 25:42

Yeah.

Speaker 2: 25:43

Doing all of it together. We're in this together.

Speaker 1: 25:46

Because I think it's again, this is a conversation that affects way more people than we think. Right, because it's like I looked up some statistics. It says at least one in six I tend to think it's more and you know, we handed a little bit of male factor of fertility. It says it can contribute 30 to 50% of cases. And I think there's this shame because, again, cultural perspectives of women get pregnant, carry the baby, be the best mom, you know you breastfeed, you forget blah blah. And then there's the man role you impregnate her Like you know you breastfeed, you forget blah blah. And then there's the man role you impregnate her Like you know. It's like right, yeah, your sperm. And like this is what you're made to do.

Speaker 1: 26:19

And then when either one of those say you know, because I had a uterus issue where I had to have septum surgery twice, like you know, I physically it was a viable pregnancy was not an option until I had surgery no-transcript. So now when we've said, okay, sarah had a uterus issue, let's say he had some kind of infertility issue. Here we both now play these narratives Well, what if she don't want to be with me? What if he doesn't? It's my fault? Like now there's actually kind of something in the medical chart that says, hey, sarah, your uterus is not shaped right. How does that conversation then kind of continue, because I mean it's hard to not to recognize it, like there's an elephant in the room, like, hey, yes, this is what we're going to have to figure out.

Speaker 2: 27:26

So I think that I understand that what we're talking about is infertility in this moment, but I think that's a universal couple thing because we have yet to meet the couple and I get where we deal with a specific population of people who are working through some things and wanting to be their healthiest. But couples always have that thought, that like did you mean this.

Speaker 3: 27:40

It's my fault, I failed. What have I done right now?

Speaker 2: 27:43

I mean, it can be job loss. It can be like my mom died and I became a different person. You didn't marry this version of me, but I get what we're talking about To be very clear. I think that's a conversation we always have to be having, because we are 100 different versions of the expected plan throughout the course of a relationship. But there is this thing you said it like. Now it's in my medical chart. This is not in my mind. It's there, it's like a thing and it's real and we can't ignore it. But we can, and I think that's what a lot of people do.

Speaker 1: 28:12

You said too like you didn't tell your yeah, what's if he was like I have to have kids, this is something I have to have, yeah that's right.

Speaker 2: 28:25

And then I think that we have to be willing to ask the question, knowing that we don't know the answer.

Speaker 3: 28:30

Because you're asking it no matter what, whether you say it or not, and I think that that creates a lot of mystery in a relationship, if we're holding onto things and not saying things, and that creates a lot of tension and conflict and understandably. I mean, I get why you would want to hold onto that or not say it, but I think that that's one of the things we talk about with couples all the time the scary thing that you're afraid to say. You are saying it regardless of if you've verbalized it or not, and it's better to verbalize it and to name it so that there's not mystery, because when there's mystery between partners around those kinds of things, there's so much anxiety and that generates a lot of conflict and disconnection.

Speaker 2: 29:13

Well, it also necessarily changes the lens that we are looking out at the world. So I would say one of the primary things we do with couples is try to help them find where their lens shifted, where I started to believe something that-.

Speaker 3: 29:27

About my partner that-.

Speaker 2: 29:28

And about myself, about myself and about my partner. That I never confirmed, but I was afraid was true and there are usually some sort of key moments that it's like this happened and then it's usually around this period of our relationship.

Speaker 3: 29:40

It is around this period of time Trying to conceive.

Speaker 4: 29:42

Pregnancy around this period of our relationship, trying to conceive pregnancy, pregnancy loss, fertility, like these moments.

Speaker 2: 29:47

Yes, and we believe it. We didn't mean to, we didn't have that thought in our brain, but it's just like. And then we start seeing our partner through that lens. So if, in this example, I think that Steven may not want to be with me I keep having pregnancy losses, like we aren't getting pregnant. He may not want to be with me. I'm going to see every decision. He stayed late. We were supposed to have our talk about pregnancy tonight. This is our meeting, but he hasn't even brought it up. That's because he doesn't want to be with me.

Speaker 2: 30:12

He's already checking out one foot out the door and I confirm everything through that Self-preservation. I mean, it's not no one's meaning to do that. And then it stacks and it builds and now I have years worth of data that supports me. That's like you really didn't. And Steven's like what? But Steven's doing the same thing in a different way. The only thing Erin cares about anymore is this pregnancy. If we can't have a baby, she's not even herself. She doesn't care about me. She's not like there's no way into her anymore. So you withdraw, we know it's, we all do it, but it's so important to say it out loud. So the thing you most you don't want to say, at least you have to start practicing saying it to yourself.

Speaker 2: 30:51

Yeah, and you sort of grow your strength and your courage, and then you do say it, you say the thing and you don't know the answer.

Speaker 3: 30:59

And I think that thing, sarah, specifically, that thought of my body has failed and it's my fault.

Speaker 4: 31:05

Right.

Speaker 3: 31:05

I think on some level there's this great philosopher who wrote a book. His name is AW Frank and he wrote a book called At the Will of the Body and one of the things. This is kind of a little philosophical, but I think it applies and he talks about the medical community and I'm grateful for medicine and I think medicine is wonderful.

Speaker 3: 31:23

Caveat noted community and I'm grateful for medicine and I think medicine is wonderful. But there's one of these, there's this perspective that we actually are in control of our body, like we can control it, medicine can fix it, we can take this, we can get this surgery, like we actually control our body, and he said I think that that creates a really difficult dynamic for individuals.

Speaker 3: 31:43

We do not control our body. If our body wants to do something, our body will do something. If you even just think about death, no one can control whether that happens or not. We are at the will of our body. And I think, in some ways, this whole perspective around pregnancy and whose fault it is If we can understand, like my partner doesn't have control in a sense, if their uterus needs surgery or if there's something different about a sperm count Now, yes, can we do some things? Does medicine allow us.

Speaker 3: 32:15

That's where I was coming next. Does medicine allow us these phenomenal like interventions? Absolutely, that is amazing.

Speaker 2: 32:23

It's information to nourish our bodies, to be the best.

Speaker 3: 32:25

Right, exactly.

Speaker 3: 32:26

It doesn't mean you treat your body like trash but it does mean that there's a different perspective, I think, between partners. That takes care of that idea of blame. There are some things that are just out of our control and, yes, do we have to be accountable and do we have to do what we can. But also, it's not someone's fault if their uterus is shaped different or if their sperm count is really low and they've done all the things they can do. I think that that's the important piece and I think just that understanding, at least in conversations with other couples, think just that understanding, at least in conversations with other couples, I think even in our own conversation. We are, on some level, our body.

Speaker 2: 33:08

It's our job to take care of them.

Speaker 3: 33:10

Right, and then our body does what our body does and we can't always do something about that, and that's, is that someone's fault? Well, I don't know who am I going to, but like I don't know it just, it feels like it's a potentially useful perspective. Sure.

Speaker 2: 33:24

I think it is. I think one other thing. So our first pregnancy loss we were in therapy, which you said most people don't come to us in those seasons. We are not normal. Some people do highly recommend, but we are. I mean, we both have counseling background.

Speaker 2: 33:38

So of course we were going to and at one point I was like what if it is my fault? And I said the hard thing because that's what I was thinking and that's what I was trying not to say and I'm like but what if it is? What if I am doing something? What if it is my body? What if it's my fault? And Stephen's like it's not, stop saying that. And I was like stop saying that. What I need to hear from you is what if it is? What do you think of me? What do you feel about me? What does that mean?

Speaker 2: 34:03

And he was like he looks at our therapist, I will never. And he was like can you tell her? Like stop saying that, like this isn't helpful? And our therapist was like no, I think you need to engage her. If you think it's not her fault, what if she needs to know that, even if it is, your feelings don't change? And steven's like I feel like I've said that over and over and I'm like no, you, no, you haven't. You've said it's not my fault, what if it is? And I think that sometimes couples need to have that reckoning too. What if it is my uterus? What if it is? I need to know where we stand, and I think that that's an important thing. That was important for me because I needed to say, like, well, even if it is my fault, I also forgive me, I'm not doing anything on purpose but like, okay, this is who I am. Then I need to, I need to have like an internal reckoning of okay.

Speaker 3: 34:55

And I had to have the reckoning of. This is not an important question for me, because I don't blame Aaron and I would.

Speaker 2: 34:58

I would never do that and I love Aaron Like I don't.

Speaker 3: 34:59

That was never a question for me, but I was like and what I had to accept is this is a question for Aaron, and Aaron needs to ask herself is it my fault? Aaron needs to even say, like you know what I think it is my fault and I don't need to like try to talk me out of anything other than like okay, you know what? I don't blame you. I don't hold that against you. I understand, though, that you need to ask yourself that question, and let's talk about it.

Speaker 2: 35:25

And I the piece for me which was like and if it is, I choose you, I love you. And I think to your point, though, sarah, I don't think everybody does have that answer. Either way, to your point, Stephen we have to know, we cannot live in these secrets and we cannot have. I mean, that is where lies grow in our brain and in our bodies, and they come between us one way or another.

Speaker 1: 35:47

Yeah, and I think you know you guys hit the nail on the head too is I look back and I'm like gosh, I wish we were in therapy trying to get pregnant, and then, post miscarriage, I wish we were in therapy. And then how much more that would have equipped us to deal with postpartum depression and therapy.

Speaker 1: 36:03

And then how much more that would have equipped us to deal with postpartum depression and you know. And then parenthood, because it goes from once it does occur, it does seem like it was zero to a million. And then you do all these life transition seasons so quick. Together you have this new human and you've never dealt with that hurt of when you were trying. You never dealt of the pregnancy which we have a great episode guys go back and look for it with Aaron and Steve about. You know, when you're pregnant it feels so off, like one-sided, and then in postpartum or you know, loss. You know we never took those moments and it all literally does compile inside of us. And then our kids or toddlers and or babies, and it explodes. And then where we find ourselves in your guys's office going, well, you know, actually it started a Tuesday at 12 where he did want to just have sex with me.

Speaker 3: 36:50

That's right, yeah, and he's going yeah, oh yeah, and I think that what is so important is that's why our experiences and our stories matter, and no matter how far we are from those things, we can always go back, and I think that that's a beautiful Well they're very present in our bodies. That's right, that's right.

Speaker 2: 37:12

Going all that far back.

Speaker 3: 37:13

True, true, but I think a lot of people are like well, that Tuesday at noon shouldn't matter anymore. That's right.

Speaker 2: 37:18

Why hash out the?

Speaker 3: 37:19

past. We're here now and we've got kids and we should just be happy.

Speaker 2: 37:23

Or we don't and we have come to be okay with that. Like, why are we still stuck in this dark time in our life?

Speaker 3: 37:31

And it's not about getting stuck there, it's just. You know, if you've ever had something really important or exciting or you know something that you wanted to share with anyone in your life, you know to not be able to share it hurts, Like you lose part of yourself, and so on some level, it's just, this is part of your life that you want to tell your partner about. On some level, it might not even be more than that, it's just like hey, do you remember when this happened? Like this is just something I was thinking about and feeling and I've never been able to say it. And in saying it, there's two things that happen.

Speaker 3: 38:09

From a neurobiological standpoint you tell yourself the story and someone else bears witness to it, and when that process happens, that is connection and that is how we know we're human. There's this whole thing called intersubjective experience about how do people feel, like people, and it's you know. You think about a kid who's crying. Right, they're hurt and they're crying and what they need is they need that caregiver to come up to them and be like oh my goodness, you fell and you scraped your knee and you're crying and it hurts. I'm bearing witness to your experience and what happened, and you know what that does for that little kid. They go oh, ooh, and they might cry a little bit longer because it really does hurt. But they feel seen and they feel like, oh, when I fall and I scrape my knee and I cry, someone says you've fallen, you've scraped your knee and you're crying, and that is intersubjective experience.

Speaker 3: 39:01

That is what neurobiologically happens when we interact with people and that does not change ever. When we are adults, we need people to go. Oh, my goodness, you have wanted kids for so long and this has been such a hard journey and this Tuesday at noon was part of it and it impacted you in a way that mattered. I see it, I hear it, I bear witness to it. That makes us human and that makes us okay.

Speaker 1: 39:29

I love that. How do people find you guys? Because I think people are going, wow, we need help or gosh, yeah, I'm listening to this. We have kids now. But I wanted to listen to this because we walked this road and you know how do they find the right professionals to walk through this. And you know, as we said before, one partner may be more like oh, I'm going to research, I'm going to find this person, book our appointment. Then we have to drag the other partner. So where do you advise people? The next step? That won't help.

Speaker 3: 40:00

That's a great question.

Speaker 2: 40:01

It's a tricky question, so one, I mean our knee jerk, is always us.

Speaker 3: 40:05

Well, this is why this is one of the reasons we do what we do is because we couldn't find anyone who would, and we're like you know, when we were going through our pregnancy loss I don't know if we mentioned your research. That's true, yeah, so for my PhD research, I researched the impact of pregnancy loss and infertility on a couple and the reason we did that because we did do that together.

Speaker 2: 40:28

I don't have a PhD, but I kind of have an honorary in my own mind.

Speaker 3: 40:33

The reason we did that is because no one was doing it and no one was there to like, in our estimation, to help couples walk through this and so again, and to get how that season impacts forever.

Speaker 2: 40:47

We got through it, where it wasn't something we were surviving every day, but it was still very much a part of our journey and in our bodies and the way I shaped my lens and it had to be worked through. But the reality is people think I can just go to anybody.

Speaker 2: 41:02

And just like anything you can't be best friends with everybody. You're just not. Everybody is not for you, you're not for everybody, and that's actually a really good thing, and that is also true. With a fit for talking through these things, everyone is not a good fit and people just sometimes try to push that square peg right into that round hole and it just you shouldn't. It makes it worse. So I do think asking the questions like do you have experience with this? And checking it Because a lot of people say they do, yes, you know. Or like I have my sister's brother had a kid or whatever I'm being silly now but like it does matter your experience and how aware of all of these things you are, because it's so important to have experience with these exact things.

Speaker 3: 41:42

Yeah, and so I think you have to ask questions to anyone you're looking to interact with. I do think you know there are, like I said, there are some fertility clinics that have specially trained psychologists who really kind of have been trained in this area. Oftentimes, what I do find in that is you still have to find someone who can work with couples right. Because generally the focus is on really helping the partner who's trying to become pregnant deal with the process of infertility.

Speaker 2: 42:11

And even still, if the background matches, it doesn't mean the fit feels right, right and that all matters. And it's really tough. I guess it's like, man, it's worth doing and it's worth trying. And like, oh, that wasn't a great fit, rather than saying this process doesn't work, like no, we don't go and get a terrible haircut and say, well, haircuts aren't for me, you say like that was not a good fit.

Speaker 3: 42:34

Well, and there is a field too of psychology called infant maternal fetal psychology where, like, it's specifically focused on this pregnancy and utero birthing kind of period of someone's life, but again, that's not necessarily about the couple relationship. That's oftentimes again about the partner who's trying to become pregnant and then, even more specifically, like what happens if they do have a child, like just those attachment processes that happen. And so I think the reason this is hard is because it's hard, and the reason that people feel like there's a dearth of resources is because there's a dearth of resources, and so I think that that's a really sad part.

Speaker 2: 43:13

We've been talking about working on compiling People reach out to us and give us their info, like, hey, we work with this kind of population and we've been talking like it's tricky. I imagine the same for you is what I was thinking Because we can't endorse them. I don't know anything about them. It's like, oh, I don't know how to do that. But I think that there are pages that do have resources and call get a feel. See what the conversation's like. Ask for a free consult, ask what they specialize in before you even tell them what you're looking for. But try out some things before you just go to one. Oh, it didn't feel like a good fit. No, it didn't work.

Speaker 3: 43:49

Yeah.

Speaker 1: 43:50

I think this is a good segue to say you guys may need to write a new book. We have too tired to find out what, too tired to conceive, or something. I think this is what we're leading into is there needs to be another book?

Speaker 3: 44:03

I love it. We have it is something.

Speaker 2: 44:04

Can we take that title?

Speaker 3: 44:06

Too Tired to Conceive? Go ahead and copyright.

Speaker 2: 44:09

That? Could that not be? Yeah, it's exhausting Emotionally, spiritually, physically, holistically, just exhausting when you want to have the most energy and excitement and it's not always there.

Speaker 3: 44:23

And I even think things like this. So if someone is listening to this podcast like this can be a resource for you to like. Invite your partner to sit down and listen to it with you and just see if it allows you to have a conversation. Just the smallest invitation sometimes is the best and opens the door for that. Because it is so. It is so important to tell each other these stories.

Speaker 1: 44:49

Now tell our audience where to find you guys, how to connect, how to listen, all the things so they can get more of you guys, cause we don't. You guys don't just cover the trying to conceive, we are like the whole parenthood, pregnancy, parenting.

Speaker 3: 45:02

Yeah, yeah, so you can find us on at our website couples. Yeah, yeah, so you can find us at our website CouplesCounselingForParentscom. You can find us on Instagram at Couples Counseling for Parents. You can find our book Too Tired to Fight at your local bookstore or wherever you get books online. There's also an audio book so you can listen to it or read it, and our podcast is Couples Counseling for Parents.

Speaker 2: 45:24

I think if you Google Couples Counseling for Parents.

Speaker 3: 45:25

I think if you Google Couples Counseling for Parents, you're going to find us. You're going to find us and the podcast is on all the major podcast platforms Apple and Spotify, Google Play, all that kind of stuff, and so you can find our new book Too Tired to Conceive. That's right, yes, and Honey Now.

Speaker 1: 45:39

Yes, I'm putting it out there Before I let y'all go, before I've asked you questions of like what would you tell yourselves about parenting? Let's switch it up for the theme of this episode. What would you each tell yourselves about trying to conceive before you?

Speaker 3: 45:53

started is just because you want to have kids doesn't mean you get to have kids, and I didn't know that and I wish I had known that. That doesn't mean you don't try to have kids. But I just coming in with that perspective, I think helps everything. You do matter in a different way and I think that that would have been really, really, really useful for me to know. I hated finding it out. That was really that was brutal.

Speaker 2: 46:29

It's a terrible club. It's a club nobody wants. I do think and this is not what my answer would be, but I do think it has shaped us as a couple and as parents in the most beautiful ways. I think it has made us so much richer, so much deeper, which, again-.

Speaker 3: 46:45

With our kids, and more than that.

Speaker 2: 46:46

Yeah, I mean we take nothing. Well, I think we try really hard to not take things for granted and every day does feel like this precious thing, even just like hey, we made it.

Speaker 2: 46:56

We did this really hard thing together and we talked about it. So, but especially when you're in it, I think that can feel like the most disgusting thing to hear, so I already almost apologize for that. You're going to really appreciate it and be better off because of it. Like no thanks, like I wouldn't wish that on anybody. But I think what I would have told myself is how brave to continue to want something and to continue to try and continue to ask and make a way. Because I just sort of put my head down and said, like well, other people are doing it. It seems easy for them. Like oh, this must be easy. Like no, this is a really brave thing and you're doing a really hard thing. And like good on you for waking up and being vulnerable and sad. We were never quiet.

Speaker 3: 47:38

About how we felt about it Our journey.

Speaker 2: 47:40

Yeah, along the way, I think we tried really hard not to be quiet anyway, and I'm so proud of us for that. A lot of people, I think, feel like they're supposed to be quiet. It has to be this thing you do alone and even within your own home alone, and like it's a brave thing to be vulnerable and to be broken. It's brave and that's beautiful.

Speaker 1: 48:04

Yeah, brave, and that's beautiful. Yeah, as always, you guys are such a pleasure and you guys pour into us and we appreciate your vulnerability and transparency because you know you go home with each other still and you're like. You know you still putting it all out there and people don't recognize how hard it is on a public platform to be honest about your experience and be truthful. But this is how we heal and, as always, biggest fans of you guys. So I appreciate you all.

Speaker 2: 48:25

Thank you so much Sarah.

Speaker 3: 48:26

Yeah, thank you so much.

Speaker 1: 48:28

All right, guys, we will be back next week, but have a wonderful week.

Speaker 4: 48:35

Maternal mental health is as important as physical health. The Preview Alliance podcast was created for and by moms dealing with postpartum depression and all its variables, like anxiety, anger and even apathy. Hosted by CEO founder Sarah Parkhurst and licensed clinical social worker Whitney Gay, each episode focuses on specific issues relevant to pregnancy and postpartum. Join us and hear how other moms have overcome mental health challenges, as well as access tips and suggestions on dealing with your own challenges as moms. You can also browse our podcast library and listen to previous episodes at any time. Please know you're not alone on this journey. We're here to help.