Speaker 1: 0:10

Hey guys, welcome back to Preview Alliance Podcast. This is Sarah, and this week I'm super excited I have brought on a Title IX expert. I'll let her introduce herself in a second tell you more, but this is a very important conversation. If you're pregnant, if you're postpartum, you're thinking about being pregnant, or even maybe you have been pregnant and you went to school and you're now starting to think about some things that's important to you in the advocacy realm. So don't tune this out. This is Title IX. This is not scary and I have an expert, ms Ari Allen, here to tell us all about it. Welcome.

Speaker 2: 0:46

Sarah, thank you so much. I'm so delighted to be here, so I'll just take a second introduce myself to your listeners. I'm Aria Allen. I am privileged to serve as the Assistant Vice President of Equal Opportunity Compliance at Auburn University, which is here in Auburn, alabama. Prior to that role, I was an attorney in private practice and I specialized in civil rights and labor and employment law, and part of what our office does here at Auburn is, of course, administer the Title IX policy that we have at Auburn. That really covers so much. But before I dive in with my legal hat and just what I do with my everyday life, I'd love to share that I'm a mom of two littles. I've got a almost seven-year-old and a four-year-old. So I have been there, I have done that and I get it. I know what it is like to kind of feel like I don't know how to navigate this space or I don't know where to go for help or what to do.

Speaker 1: 1:45

So this is such a great topic and I'm thrilled to be here with you. Well, thank you, and you know, full disclosure. We had tried to have this podcast for a bit, but things have been really rapidly changing in our political climate and we're trying to figure out, okay well, what's going to stand, what's not going to stand. But I think we have a pretty good idea and I think the easiest thing is, you know, because even me, when I was prepping for this episode, I was like I think I know what Title IX is, but do I really know? So give us a breakdown. What is Title IX? Why should we know about it and care about it?

Speaker 2: 2:16

Yeah, absolutely so. I think a lot of people think Title IX that only applies to athletes. I don't need to know anything about that. That only applies to athletes, I don't need to know anything about that, and that's actually not true. So Title IX is a federal law passed by the United States Congress in 1972 that prohibits discrimination, harassment and retaliation on the basis of sex and educational programs and activities. This is a really fun fact that I always like to ask when I lead trainings. I just ask does anyone know how long Title IX the law actually is? Any fun guesses? Okay, you might, is it?

Speaker 1: 2:53

like pages, thousands. What if it let's do like 2,000 pages?

Speaker 2: 2:58

I'll go wild, okay so the fun trick question is the actual law that Congress passed is like 36 words. You almost got the entire thing verbatim from me. It's really short. But where I think people get confused or where it's complicated is there are regulations that have been passed by the Department of Education and those are hundreds and hundreds of pages long, and that's where there can be the complications and the nuances. But really, when we're talking about Title IX, we are talking about a federal law that is administered and implemented by the Department of Education, at least for now. Stay tuned in the next few months to see what those changes look like.

Speaker 2: 3:37

But really, what it is is a law that protects from discrimination and harassment on the basis of sex, and it applies in both K-12 public programs so your public schools across the country and to institutions of higher education that take federal funding so both your public institutions and almost all of your private higher ed institutions, because they're receiving federal grant funds or they're receiving federal money. So it really applies across the board to everyone. And another thing that I'll share, because people might think oh, this only applies to students. I'm not a student anymore, that's behind me. Actually, if you work at an institution that is covered by Title IX. It applies to your employees as well. So I can tell you, here at Auburn, our policy applies to our students, to all of our faculty and to all of our employees, our staff and our A&P folks.

Speaker 1: 4:33

That is very interesting, you know. So I'm doing some advisory boards for a study that's actually at Auburn that's going to be on student parents, and you guys have a decent amount of population of students that are parents, and I think that's the same when it comes to most universities, and I think this is where we hear it. A lot is like you know I'm in, you know I'm in nursing school or I'm finishing this degree, or I'm going to delay my doctorate, or my husband may have to delay because, you know, whatever's going on, because I want to get pregnant or I need IVF, or I already have one kid. So talk through someone who is specifically in those categories. They want to get pregnant, pregnant or postpartum, and they're in a learning institution or, say, their faculty. Right, how does that impact them? Is this more of a protection? Is this more of a guidance? Where do they go with it?

Speaker 2: 5:31

So I would consider it a protection. There have been, as you mentioned, a lot of big changes in the last year or few years within the Title IX space and I do not wanna go down the rabbit trail of like super legalistic getting into the weeds, but for a really high level. Right now, we, and everyone across the country is operating under what we call the 2020 regulations. Those were the federal regulations implemented by the Education Department back in 2020 during President Trump's first administration, by the Education Department back in 2020 during President Trump's first administration, and those regulations have a lot of details and they do provide certain protections. Interestingly enough, pregnancy is not specifically carved out in those regulations, but that does not mean that pregnancy is not protected.

Speaker 2: 6:19

Pregnancy is still protected under Title IX, it just is.

Speaker 2: 6:23

It is part of the basis of sex.

Speaker 2: 6:25

So I would absolutely say that it is a protection and that if you are pregnant or you have pregnancy-related medical conditions, whether that is pre-pregnancy, post-pregnancy, to a certain point, you are certainly welcome to go to your institution's Title IX office or the office that administers the Title IX program there and to seek reasonable accommodations.

Speaker 2: 6:52

It might be that you need assistance with a medical withdrawal because you are scheduled to deliver in the middle of a semester and you need help navigating what that looks like so that when you can return to the institution whether it's after six weeks, eight weeks, you might want to take more time that you can return and be for the most part in the same place where you left off. So you are absolutely entitled to accommodations. They have to be reasonable, they have to be structured to what your program is, and I think that's one thing that people lose sight of is that Title IX is not a one size fits all. We take you as you are and specifically with where you are in your journey. So if you're that nursing student who is in a graduate program for nursing, the analysis is going to be different than if you are a student at our College of Veterinary Medicine or if you are a faculty member who's teaching. It is detailed and fact specific to your personal circumstance.

Speaker 1: 7:54

And what do you say to people who go okay, that's great, but I'm scared to tell my professor I'm pregnant, or I'm scared I'm going to have retaliation, or I'm a student athlete? You know, just kind of those inner fears that I mean even in the workplace, right? A lot of us don't tell our employer until we're past 12 weeks, right? So now it's the kind of similar, I guess, just fearing of how do I navigate this? Are they on my side? Who should I tell? When should I tell them I'm pregnant? Like if you had to walk this road again as you're a student, know what you know, you found out you're pregnant, what would you do?

Speaker 2: 8:33

So I think the first stop really should be reaching out to your institution's Title IX office. So, for example, at Auburn, that's us the Office of Equal Opportunity Compliance. Don't be thrown. Not every office that administers the Title IX policy has Title IX in the name. So you might have to figure out OK, is it an institutional equity office? Is it a student affairs office? Is it within the Office of Accessibility? So there are different names at different institutions.

Speaker 2: 9:02

But if you Google Auburn Title IX, you should be able to find our office. Maybe you're at Alabama, alabama Title IX. You could be where I went to school Washington and Lee University in Virginia, w&l Title IX. You should be able to find who your Title IX coordinator is very quickly. That is information that has to be published and available by law. So run that Google search if you don't already know what office on campus is responsible for that, and connect with them, because primarily, our role is to be a resource, is to provide resource, to provide information, to give you your notice of rights, to give you your options, and we'll walk you through it. I'm not going to tell you. Well, you're 12 weeks pregnant. You have to let people know. That's not my job. My job is to give you the information you need and to help you identify what path you want to take.

Speaker 2: 9:57

A lot of the times we're the ones who end up telling a student's professor that they are pregnant because we are giving notice that they are entitled to Title IX protected pregnancy accommodations and these are what these students' accommodations are going to look like in the classroom setting. Sometimes we have to do that a little bit before the letter goes out because we're working closely with the program director or the department head to say, hey, we're working with a student who is in this course of study. Help us think through things. A lot of the times we already have those close relationships across campus.

Speaker 2: 10:33

At our campus it's more popular and more often that it's a graduate program and it can be in those professional programs like you were mentioning the nursing, the vet med, pharmacy I know who to call to say, hey, we've got someone. Help me think through what we need to do to help manage their schedule, for example. Nursing and vet med are great examples because there are certain core requirements for graduation that maybe have different safety considerations if the student is in their first trimester or in their third trimester. So it's not that we say, student, you just have to get over it and like come back later and we'll deal with you. Then we work really hard with the appropriate academic administrators to say can we move this radiology practicum from this timeline to that timeline? How do we best suit it and my experience across the board? I can only speak for Auburn because that's the institution I work at. The faculty want to help. They want their students to succeed. They want to figure out what is the best way to move this student forward on their life path.

Speaker 1: 11:38

No, I love that and I think too, you know if it can.

Speaker 1: 11:42

I think it's like the earlier we say this with all things with you know, cause we're focused on mental health, but, like you're, you start educating yourself. You have someone alongside you to walk this path, cause you don't know if you're going to have a high risk pregnancy. You don't know if that's going to turn to a C section. You don't know if the baby would be in the NICU. You don't know if you're going to. You know you may say you know I'm going to deform and end up breastfeeding. You need accommodations to breastfeed now, right, there's so many things I think that's interesting about Title IX from pregnancy or even, you know, trying to get pregnant, to that first year postpartum that we really don't know what's going to come at us. We don't know what we're going to dealt with, but having someone like a Title IX coordinator in your pocket like to be the main, because you may not have the greatest relationship with your professor, but you guys may, right and can be really find that common ground.

Speaker 2: 12:33

Yeah, absolutely, and I would agree, earlier is always better. It gives us more time to plan and to implement. We want to give you the best options available. It doesn't mean they're never hard conversations or hard decisions. You know, sometimes we're talking with students who this was an unexpected and unplanned pregnancy and they're trying to figure out how do I tell my parents? Do I need to consider adoption, do I need to consider dropping out? There are hard conversations and it's not our place to judge you or to say well, if I were you, this is what I would do. But we can connect you to resources we have on our campus. It's called Safe Harbor and they're advocates and they can help you provide resources. At Auburn we have a program in our community, our broader community, with us. So even if it's, I don't actually want Title IX accommodations, but you're going to point me to other resources that I need. That's fine. We're happy to do that, because the person seeking the help is always the one in charge.

Speaker 2: 13:50

I'm not here to take your course of treatment or what you need to do.

Speaker 1: 13:54

I'm here to give you your options and help guide you, and you want them to succeed right, and we want the mom to continue her education. We want her to be successful. You know she's a student athlete. We want her to after you know it's safe to come back postpartum to be a student athlete. We want her to, as they say, have the best of both worlds. What happens if this is a situation where she maybe doesn't have a U or an Auburn setup and she's finding that this is not going very well? Maybe her concern is not being heard from either Title IX office or the person that you know? She's kind of feeling like well, I feel like this is violating my rights. What would you give to someone in that advice?

Speaker 2: 14:40

Yeah, absolutely so. There are several avenues that you can consider. While it's never what an institution really wants to hear, because it means that we need to see where some gaps were a student always has the right to go to the Office of Civil Rights within the Department of Education and to file a complaint. So you can go to the Department of Education and say I tried to get help, this is where I was supposed to go and it didn't meet my needs. I say that again with the caveat of there are some changes within the Department of Education. Right now, ocr has changed in some ways, just the staffing has been reduced.

Speaker 2: 15:20

What types of complaints they are or are not prioritizing, that's the department's discretion. It's not the institution's discretion, of course, but you can certainly always go there. You can also complain to the institution itself. If you don't think that the Title IX office or the coordinator or that administrator is doing what they're supposed to do. Find out who that person's boss is, elevate it, go to the office of general counsel, go to a student advocacy office. You can pursue internal claims as well.

Speaker 1: 15:55

Okay. So it is because I think that's important, because not everybody you know, and I always said that and I said it in nursing and me being a nurse I was like you may get the most amazing nurse and it may be great, or you may get the worst nurse and it'd be horrible, and I can't tell you which experience you're going to have. But you always need to know that next step. I think people often feel like they hit that roadblock and they're exhausted. They're exhausted, they're pregnant, they're trying to manage everything that's going on. You know a lot of emotions are at play. So to know you do have that next step if you don't have a you there to help them, I think that's super important.

Speaker 1: 16:28

What about when it comes to maternal mental health? You know if, let's say, she had a miscarriage and she's experiencing the postpartum depression after, or she's having extreme anxiety or OCD, that's happening in postpartum and she may not have connected with you guys during pregnancy. Everything was, you know, okay, and then now this is the situation where she's going well, you know, I'm four months postpartum or I'm six months postpartum, but I'm really struggling. Talk through that. Does she have the same option to come to you guys and say this is what's going on, because I think people don't associate mental health the same as they do like physical restrictions, like well, I can't lift five pounds or I can't be around, radiation, right, people get blurry there.

Speaker 2: 17:13

Absolutely. That's a great question and I'm delighted to say the answer is yes. Title IX protections broadly will apply to pregnancy and pregnancy related medical conditions. So you might have had, to your point, a beautiful textbook, lovely pregnancy where you really didn't need accommodations. Maybe the baby is born during summer term. You don't take summer classes, you're ready to return in fall and you get halfway through fall and realize I'm not okay, I'm struggling in ways I didn't think I would be struggling. I haven't found the lactation room that I thought was going to be close by to where my classes are. So I'm missing all this time trying to figure out where do I go pump, where do I go nurse the baby. Whatever Come to us, you are covered in that postpartum window. I will say there is not an exact timeline on when that postpartum window technically closes. I think a good rule of thumb can be that like six to nine to 12 month window. I will say that it is more difficult if a parent is maybe several years into their parenting journey. That becomes a more difficult conversation. But that doesn't mean the answer is no. It means we just need to be creative. We need to figure out other avenues of support. But no, if you're, I'll disclose this.

Speaker 2: 18:39

I was about eight months postpartum before I was diagnosed with PPD. I didn't know what was wrong. I had a really great pregnancy. I had a really bad delivery with my first child. It required multiple surgeries.

Speaker 2: 18:52

After the fact, poor thing got stuck. He was just not willing to come out and I didn't know what was wrong. You know, I was young and married, but it was our first child. We didn't know and finally I was in a really dark place and my husband had to say I don't know, but this isn't right and we need to get you help. I was not in school at the time. I was in private practice, so my options were a little bit different. I was able to get in with my OB and get the help that I needed, and we got back on track. But if I had been at school or in an institution, I would have been able to go and say I'm struggling with postpartum depression. This is what my diagnosis is and you go through either an ADA accommodation process or a Title IX accommodation process, depending on what hat you're wearing. Are you a student or an?

Speaker 1: 19:42

employee? Yeah, no, and I appreciate your sharing that and I think that's so important to you know, probably, why you are such an advocate for these moms. Is you get it? You've been there and I think that is what is missing in a lot of this conversation. Is these people like you? Know you that were going for help?

Speaker 1: 20:00

There's a vulnerability, that you get it, you understand it, and it takes a lot to ask for help. I think that's where people struggle. Is that? Well, am I admitting I'm weak? Am I saying I can't do it? So-and-so's over there with five kids and they're still holding all their credits and they're getting the A. We play these mind games as women of what we should do and shouldn't do and we try to throw our superhero capes on. But it's to realize asking for help is so strong in that, more than likely, the statistics tell me that someone, especially if she's a woman, she's had a child will understand. I had a high-risk pregnancy, I had a traumatic delivery, I had postpartum depression. I understand, I had anxiety. You know, and that is what I hope this conversation brings is, you know, these Title IX offices are not big, they're not scary, they're protective measures, they're on your side and more than likely someone in that field gets it on a real level.

Speaker 2: 21:02

I absolutely agree with that. It can be so scary to ask for help and it's always this funny line because I think the do have to enforce and administer our policy to make sure that our people on our campus and our campus community are safe from prohibited misconduct. But that is a smaller portion of what we do. Our day-to-day work is really more on the how are we a resource? How do we get you the information you need? How do we connect you? How do we work with you and come alongside you to develop the appropriate plan?

Speaker 2: 21:55

And our office wears a lot of hats. We also do ADA accommodations or Americans with Disability Act accommodations for all employees across campus. So even if it's not perfectly in a Title IX bucket, it might fit in a different bucket, it might fit in a different pathway. So I would say, for the most part, we really try not to be scary. We try to be primarily a resource, so that you are empowered to know what your rights are, what your resources are, whether they're campus resources or community resources. And then it's collaborative. We work with you to understand what do you need, how do we help connect you with that need?

Speaker 1: 22:37

Well, I love that and we'll put your mom hat on for the last part of the conversation just to say what do you wish you can tell some of these young moms who are coming to you and juggling it all You're seeing yourself, you're hearing these things what advice would you have for them about motherhood? And you know you're doing a lot, you know you have your mom hat, you've got your work hat, you know, you see it. And what do you wish to impart upon them that you wish you would have known yourself? And what do you wish to impart upon them that?

Speaker 2: 23:07

you wish you would have known yourself. I think one thing that has so solidified with me is I have walked my journey of parenthood, being a mother and being a working mother with. You know, at first I was in private practice, which was a very intense but rewarding job. Now I'm in higher education administration, which is an intense but rewarding job. It takes a village.

Speaker 2: 23:30

Lean into your village and your village might look different year to year or month to month, but knowing that you will need help and it is okay to ask for help, and that help might be parents or grandparents, it might be best friends or mom groups, it might be. We have a mom's night out once a month, and when I say night out, I really just mean I'm not in my house. I'm in one of my best friend's house and we're doing silly things like watching whatever new Netflix series or sitting on the sofa in our pajamas, but taking care of each other. It helps. And having just my version of what my village looks like is so incredibly important to how I can parent, to how I can work, to how I'm a wife and a spouse to my husband. So I would just lean into. You are not in this alone and your village might not look the same day to day or year to year, but you need to lean into that village and let them help you when you need it.

Speaker 1: 24:33

I love that. I think that's really important and you know I find it so much is that women need women and, like you, need other moms who grasp it and get it and to be vulnerable and to share. And maybe now to the mom who's experiencing postpartum depression what did you wish that you kind of could have heard, could have gave you some encouragement?

Speaker 2: 24:55

That's such a good question. I think, knowing that there was light at the end of the tunnel, so to speak, that this was not going to be who I was or how I felt for forever, speak that this was not going to be who I was or how I felt for forever, knowing that other people go through this too and that this is what worked for them, or not. I had similar issues with my second child, but I was so much more prepared, like I got the medication ready and was like we're going to start taking it the last month of pregnant, and it was safe, like I cleared it with my doctor. Of course I followed medical advice for it. I knew that my hormones would make me feel a certain way, that I was more likely to experience those feelings and being prepared and knowing there was light at the end of the tunnel and that I wasn't going to feel that way for forever, that it did have an end point for me.

Speaker 2: 25:48

That would have just been so nice to know that this wasn't forever, because I think when you're a new mom, particularly with your first gosh, it's scary when you don't know what you don't know right, and so I think having someone say you're going to feel like this for about a year and then you're going to start feeling like your old self again. You're never exactly going to be your old self again, because now you're a mom and that changes priorities and perspectives, but you're going to find who you are again and it's not going to be like this forever. I think that's so critical to know that this, too, shall pass.

Speaker 1: 26:29

I felt the same way. I really I think it was my first one and I have said this so openly it's just you can't see past even that minute or that hour or that day and it's deep and it's dark and it's scary. And then you know anxiety on the other aspect is very overwhelming and it's heightened and you just feel trapped and panicky when you know depression and they can go hand in hand, but it was. I didn't even know what I was feeling, I just knew again, something was wrong. But to name it and say this is why we again love just the education piece of like what is depression look like in pregnancy and postpartum? What does anxiety look like OCD? What is traumatic birth after meth look like in pregnancy and postpartum? What does anxiety look like OCD? What does traumatic birth after meth look like? You know what is postpartum psychosis? All just to name it and we say tame it.

Speaker 1: 27:19

And then again just to hear other stories of women who are on the other side, that you see the light and you go. You know she felt this way and look at her, she's better today. That's not her today and that's not to be me tomorrow. You know she felt this way and look at her. She's better today. That's not her today and that's not to be me tomorrow. You know I'm going to ask for help. So thank you for just being very vulnerable and sharing that, because it truly does.

Speaker 1: 27:34

That is where the power is is to hear other stories and, you know, have the such opportunity of talking about Title IX and postpartum depression in the same conversation and just again we're such just we're very thankful for your knowledge and what you're doing for these students and faculty and we'll probably have to bring you back on to update us when things kind of situate. But I think the core here with title nine is it is protection. They're on your side. The core here with Title IX is it is protection. They're on your side. Reach out and find out who they are in your university. If you're a faculty there, you know. If you're a student, google it. You can probably go to one of your advisors, you can ask around and it's something to know and if that is roadblock, there's always a step above them. Just kind of got to work our way up the chain.

Speaker 2: 28:29

Yeah, and I hope that no student ever has that negative experience. I know that some of them will. Some of them will have a negative experience at Auburn. It's true it's not what we want, but you know, we are imperfect people too and sometimes we need to learn from challenges. We are imperfect people too, and sometimes we need to learn from challenges. But I would say that my experience in this industry as a whole is that this conversation, particularly about pregnancy and pregnancy related medical conditions it is growing and growing and growing and it's becoming more popular as we see students making different decisions. They might take some time off between high school and undergraduate, so they are non-traditional students in that sense. Or more and more students are having pursuing higher education and master's degrees and PhDs, so they are having a family while they're still in school. So I would say that they're overwhelmingly the industry knows pool.

Speaker 1: 29:27

So I would say that they're overwhelmingly the industry knows, and for the most part, I would absolutely imagine that you're going to find the help you need at your Title IX office. I love that and thank you for making it such understandable and relatable. And, again, it was an honor to have you guys. I appreciate you guys listening. This is, I know it's a little different than our normal kind of maternal mental health talks, but you know what it's so important for you to know how to advocate for yourself, get help and to share it too. Share it to your friends. You know your coworkers. You're going to hear somebody in your same position that we just kind of talked about and you're going to know how to help them and direct them. So, guys, until next week.

Speaker 3: 30:05

Maternal mental health is as important as physical health. The Preview Alliance podcast was created for and by moms dealing with postpartum depression and all its variables, like anxiety, anger and even apathy. Hosted by CEO founder Sarah Parkhurst and licensed clinical social worker Whitney Gay, each episode focused on specific issues relevant to pregnancy and postpartum. Join us and hear how other moms have overcome mental health challenges, as well as access tips and suggestions on dealing with your own challenges as moms. You can also browse our podcast library and listen to previous episodes at any time. Please know you're not alone on this journey. We're here to help.