Speaker 1: 0:09

Hi guys, welcome back to Preview Alliance podcast. This is Sarah and I'm so excited. Today, one of my favorite authors she's a physician, she's a mom, she's a therapist for new moms is on our podcast. So I am so excited to introduce you to Dr Jill, and I'm going to murder her last name Again. I told her prior Zachary, zachary.

Speaker 1: 0:32

Jill told me Okay, okay, I told her. I said I'm going to spiral and say it wrong, which our listeners know. You know I'm very open about it. So hey, welcome Jill to the Preview Lines podcast.

Speaker 3: 0:49

Thank you very much for having me today here.

Speaker 1: 0:50

Sarah, I really appreciate being on. I love your podcast. Thank you so much. Now I know you well, but please just give our listeners a little intro about you so that they can understand what greatness we're fixing to encounter with you here.

Speaker 3: 1:00

Okay, Well, I am a perinatal mental health physician, so I started out as a family doctor and then switched careers after having my kids and became a therapist as well, and I have just been working with moms transitioning from pre-baby to with baby for the past 15 years, and I'm also author of Motherhood Survival Manual, your Prenatal Guide to Prevent Postpartum Depression and Anxiety, and that was published last year and we'll just leave it as that.

Speaker 1: 1:42

Perfect. Well, you have all these hats right. So was there a moment or an experience that kind of made you say, okay, we're failing moms, right, they are failing. We need to prevent this instead and talk to us kind of how that model switch right, Because I feel like we're really kind of a reactionary society, not a preventative society. But you're on the forefront of preventing this, which we love and talk about all the time.

Speaker 3: 2:09

Well, it was kind of a process for me. So initially it was something. I was really concerned that I would get postpartum depression. My mom had it with both me and my brother, and I had had depression as a child and we moved from the East Coast out to the West Coast when I was eight months pregnant. I didn't know anybody here, I had no family support, and so I knew I was at high risk. So I began working and trying to figure out I need a plan here and there were really no resources on this. So I put together. You know I'm like I'm going to need some supports, I'm going to need help, I'm going to, you know, let's get. My cousin came out and stayed with me for a month. She's the oldest of seven, so she knew what she was doing. So I did not get postpartum depression. The second one I did and we can well I got postpartum anxiety.

Speaker 3: 3:13

So I had that filed away in my head for many years and I continued to practice as a family doctor and then I made my transition in my career to women's mental health and then I kept seeing study after study coming out showing that postpartum depression in sometimes as many as 50% of cases can be prevented with simple interventions.

Speaker 3: 3:43

There was the ROSE study, the PREP study, work for mothers and babies. These institutions were providing it for small groups of people and seeing a big difference in how women did, and it just blew my mind that here we have this illness that impacts half a million women in the United States every year, that almost half of them could have this prevented and we're doing nothing. So then I thought I need to get this information out so that all women can know what tools, what works, what makes a difference. All women can know what tools, what works, what makes a difference, because so many people have had depression or had anxiety or know they have some risk factors and they want to make a difference and do what they can to reduce their chance of getting it or at least make life a little easier or know whether they're getting it, so they can get help and get support and make a change to make it better as fast as possible.

Speaker 1: 4:52

I love that and I love that your mother was open with you and I've heard this a lot that it takes the woman becoming depressed or having extreme anxiety, or then her family goes. Well, you know, your mother did have this with you, or your aunt or your grandma. It kind of seems like it is one of those. I call it the club. It's you know me too club in a sense of this, of like no one's open about it, like we are trying to be right now before someone's experiencing it. So I love that your mother was so informed enough and took away the shame right and saying Jill, this is what I experienced, so that allowed you to go ahead and have that forethought of it's running in my family.

Speaker 3: 5:32

Yeah, absolutely. And when she had it they didn't even have a name for it. She just knew she was down and had trouble bonding. And now we have a name and now we need to decrease the stigma. But even if you have a male relative who's had depression, you are at increased risk of having postpartum depression. So it's not just running in the women, it's anyone in your family history who's had a history of depression just increases the risk just a little bit more.

Speaker 1: 6:08

Yeah, I love that. Now you have been very open which we thank you about your postpartum anxiety. Can you kind of take us back to those moments when you realized I'm not okay. This is more than new mom. This is not just tired.

Speaker 3: 6:26

For me, yeah, I would say. I mean it was a dawning in a lot of ways, and then it got to the point where there was no way to not know it. But initially I noticed I couldn't sleep at night when my baby was sleeping. Even then, here's my moment to sleep and I can't quiet my head. Then I noticed I couldn't relax and I have what I call now the baby radar and that's that scanning for the safety of your baby, and all moms have this and you want to have a little bit of it. Where you're like is my baby hungry, tired, you know, safe? Are they warm, are they dressed right? You're scanning for the needs of your baby and it's an important thing to have because it keeps your baby loved, protected, cared for, nurtured. It's that appropriate responsibility.

Speaker 3: 7:24

But with postpartum anxiety, it goes on hyperdrive. So it's hard to think of anything else. And I was just constantly on edge, wondering, you know, what do I need to be doing for my baby? Or how am I failing my baby now? Or, oh, I wish I hadn't said X or done this. I should have, you know, gotten there a little faster. It was just it felt like a guitar string had been plucked and my body felt like it was reverberating, when I felt that I was like okay, I have to do something. This has been going on for months, so I was slow, even as a professional, to get help, which I think is a common story unfortunately.

Speaker 1: 8:15

I mean, it took me months and I'm you know, and I think it is. I felt it. You don't want to admit it, you know you. You almost feel like saying it feels like you're a failure, right, it's. That's just stigmatism that you, you know, you think other moms got it together. You see them on Instagram. You see them you know even your neighbor who maybe just had our third and you're like this is my first and I feel like I can't get dressed and it's two o'clock in the afternoon.

Speaker 3: 8:41

Yeah.

Speaker 1: 8:47

It's a win if you can get dressed before 11, I think Absolutely Well. I do appreciate your openness of this because I feel like, like you said, as a professional, as a provider, it happened to you and we always try to stress that maternal mental health conditions don't carry your resume, your zip code, your color of your skin, nothing of that, how much money you have in the bank, none of that matters. Anybody and everybody. It can be at risk and have this, unfortunately. Now in your book you talk about building a survival plan. So and you kind of mentioned, you did that yourself when you were moving and I love, hey, I mean, the oldest is seven. That sounds like if we could replicate that cousin to send everybody, that would just be amazing.

Speaker 3: 9:28

She was great.

Speaker 1: 9:30

What does that actually look like for a sleep-deprived new mom? What would be that survival plan? Because I know I can hear our listeners tuning in and going. Okay, all right, tell me this plan, Jill, Help me out.

Speaker 3: 9:41

Yeah. So my whole book, the Motherhood Survival Manual, goes into how to create this plan, and it's a handout that's in the back, but then there's a lot of different layers. So the very first step, though, is to figure out what can you take off of your plate, because you're doing so much, You're so busy, and then, when you have a baby, every moment can be busy. So the first thing in your survival plan is what can you take off of your plate? What can your partner do? What can your family do? What limits do you need to set with work, and what can you do to make life simpler? Can you put something on auto order? Just all the different ways you can make life simpler.

Speaker 3: 10:30

Then it's figuring out support. You need friends who will be like how are you doing, how are you really doing? You need someone who's going to be like I'm coming over, I'm going to watch the baby, so you can take a real nap and not worry. You need to have a plan with your partner, and part of the book goes into how to communicate with your partner, because sometimes, in relationships, asking your partner to do something can be a little tricky. So how do you talk together and say, hey, this is a shared responsibility. How can we both thrive through this and how can we do check-ins and navigate this together? Because we're both about to do way more than we've ever done, and each person in a partnership often feels like they're doing 110% when the baby comes, so it really makes a big difference to have these ongoing conversations.

Speaker 3: 11:34

Then the plan has sleep techniques that you can implement. I have over 20 different sleep techniques to get more effective sleep and to get more bang for your buck out of the sleep you're getting, as well as certain nutritional tools, and then the cognitive tools of how to reduce anxiety and worry in the moment. And what are some ways you can think about things that can improve or boost your mood or at least stop sabotaging your mood?

Speaker 1: 12:10

I love that. I think everybody needs a copy of that ASAP. And listeners are listening, they're going well. I wish I would have that. Well, you know, it's still a lot of things that can be implemented when our kids because we're still postpartum for three, four years, post-birth right, and in those little years all these tools can be implemented as well. You know our thoughts, our nutrition, the sleep, a lot of sleep is interrupted. I mean honestly, probably for the first six years of your child's life.

Speaker 3: 12:41

And often I see women who've had postpartum depression before and they're coming to me and they want to make this pregnancy. They just want this to go better, especially postpartum, and so this book is helpful, even if you've had a baby before. It's not the stuff you find in your what to expect when you're expecting or in your birth class.

Speaker 1: 13:06

This material is just not in that I think that's one of the biggest misconceptions that people is like well, shouldn't I be told about maternal mental health? Shouldn't my provider tell me this? Shouldn't there be? And it's simply not right and that's why we call it the silent killer of mobs is because this is not talked about. We're not talking about the signs and symptoms. We're not talking about actionable steps, preventative things or informing your family, your friends. So I love that we're again having this conversation on that kind of you know what's not talked about. What are the three red flags that you're kind of saying to your patients or say what if your best friend daughter's pregnant? You're like I? Really, these three things I generally see, you know, in pregnancy and postpartum. Don't brush it off. You know, I know it for me was feeling like I should have never been a mom, or not being able to sleep when, like you said, when my child was sleeping, those were two kind of big flags in the beginning. That led me to say this is not right.

Speaker 3: 14:07

Absolutely, and those are really important ones that you just mentioned. I would say overwhelmed, feeling overwhelmed, but all parents feel overwhelmed at times when it is a recurrent. When it is a recurrent, that means it's more significant. And even if it's just here and there, why not get extra support? Why not get all the tools that you can get?

Speaker 3: 14:34

The second one I would say is anger. That's an often unrecognized sign of postpartum depression and anxiety, sign of postpartum depression and anxiety. So if you are finding yourself irritable, you find yourself wanting to yell at your partner. These are signs you have too much on your plate, not enough support, not the right sleep and you might have some depression or anxiety going on, and treatment makes a huge difference. And the third one I would say is feeling like you're a bad mom, and it goes along the lines of what you said. Depression makes you feel like a failure, even when you're doing everything right with your baby. It makes you feel like you're not good enough, that you're failing at this. And, in particular, if a woman says to me I feel like someone else could be a better mother to this baby than me, that has me very concerned that in treatment, we need to begin it right away, right away.

Speaker 1: 15:41

Yeah, and I know these statements are resonating with our listeners and I just our hope is there is options and we'll link. There's a national hotline, we'll link stuff about Jill where you get the book on post-partum support international. So, listeners, if this is resonating, we want you to know that there's actual next steps and we'll make sure to link that in our show notes. And I think another thing is what no one else talks about too, because they're like okay, well, I'm not really feeling that.

Speaker 1: 16:07

But what I am feeling, jill, is this mental load, invisible mental load, that's piling up on me. It's stuff no one else can see, right. It's like I always say my mom brain has about a hundred tabs open, like you know, on my computer, and it's like did I do this X, y, z? And then your partner could be willing to say, well, tell me what to help or tell me what to do. And you're like that's another tab that just opened. Is me having to tell you? So what do you tell your patients? Or how do you advise them? How do you lighten that load?

Speaker 3: 16:37

Yeah, because it's really hard to imagine how life is going to be after you have your baby when you haven't done this before. It's so different and so it's really hard to picture it, and so part of the book is that I really want to paint effective partner and more of a hands-on parent and how to balance this invisible load. I also have a list of all the responsibilities and duties, of what goes into running a household and taking care of a baby, and you can go through this checklist with your partner before your baby comes, even if that's where you're at in this stage, and you circle who's responsible and what needs to shift and you write a plan, and that, I think is really helpful because so much of this is invisible. I really like to list it out, and it's really helpful for partners to go. Oh, I didn't realize that.

Speaker 3: 17:52

Making the doctor's appointments or making lunches or doing the dishwasher, even cleaning before the housekeeper comes Each of these things takes time, takes energy, and I bring respect to the roles of everything. So, whether you follow traditional or modern or some funky balance of how you divide things up with your partner, I want you both to look at each other with respect of what you are accomplishing and honor that and then figure out what do we need to do? And then be flexible with that, because things shift and sometimes somebody has, you know, the flu or is sick and you say, hey, I'm down, can you take over X or Y? Yeah, absolutely, and then do check-ins like ongoing conversations with each other How's this going? Or I really appreciated that you washed all the pump parts. That made a big difference for me. You know, all those conversations turn this to-do list into a way of connecting with your partner rather than arguing, and finding ways to respect each other rather than feel unappreciated.

Speaker 1: 19:18

Or like you're trying to one-up right, or it's like, well, I did this and you've not done this. Or you know, it can get very tit for tat and I think if you've never experienced postpartum with your partner, we all kind of have this magical view of maybe how it's going to go down right. Or you think it's that first moment when you're both exhausted and that you know, I remember bringing home and we were exhausted and we're looking at each other and we started arguing and I think it was about something simple of like who was going to grab, like I don't know, the butt paste or something, and we're just looking at each other going oh no, this is day, you know two or three, and at home and we're kind of spiraling already at home and we're kind of spiraled already and it was very much quickly a. We never had those. You know, with marriage there's, you know, the counseling you get before you're trying to prepare. We never had that to become parents and that was a much harder transitioning for us than it was marriage.

Speaker 3: 20:22

It often is. It really is, and postpartum depression is a big risk factor for divorce and it's tragic because it's so treatable and often preventable. And I really try to provide the tools for couples to move from scorekeeping to giving appreciation and respect and recognizing that both of you are often going to feel like you are doing far more than your fair share and yet it may be less than half, but that's just the truth of how it is.

Speaker 2: 21:01

Yeah.

Speaker 1: 21:02

Oh, I love that. I really wish we would have read that prior to both of ours. Now, for a mom that's listening right now and I love how our moms listen to us. Some are folding laundry, some's in carpool lines, some's, you know, walking the block, some's on their lunch break, you know, and they only hear this little segment of our episode because you know it's life and it's mom life and work life, and you know somebody needs them at this moment. She's got to go help the toddler potty or her boss is like it's time to work. We love giving them takeaway. So what would be like three mental health tools that you want her to walk away with that she could like implement that you're like, okay, I can take this from it and then I can get Jill's book or I can listen to the rest of the episode later, but give her something she can take home with.

Speaker 3: 21:44

It's a great, great suggestion. So, first of all and I think a lot of these busy moms are probably doing it right now and it's what I call a two for one, and I mentioned it in the book about how you're doing something for your baby but also you can do something at the same time that benefits you as well. So, whether that's listening to a podcast or doing something enjoyable while you are doing carpool or folding the laundry, if you want to take a walk with your baby to get them outdoors, well, invite a friend or meet a friend for coffee. Do a two-for-one so it benefits the both of you at the same time.

Speaker 3: 22:28

A second takeaway tool is a simple breathing technique called belly breathing, and for people who haven't ever done this before, what belly breathing is is a way of doing a quick reset of your nervous system, so most of the time, we're taught to breathe through our chest. With belly breathing, when you inhale, you take your belly out and your belly goes out, so your diaphragm goes down with each breath in and your belly goes out, and then your belly goes in and your belly goes out, and then your belly goes in and your air goes out. And doing five slow belly breaths can do a quick reset of your nervous system and you can do this while you're nursing, while you're pumping, you can do this just before you go to bed. You can do it throughout the day. If your baby is crying and you have no idea what's going on, you can just take a few breaths and it just helps bring your nervous system, brings the cortisol and the adrenaline down. It's a little tricky to learn because it's a little different way of breathing, but practice it makes a big difference.

Speaker 3: 23:52

And then the third tool I would say is kind of embracing the good enough mentality, and what I mean by that is right now moms are bombarded with information. Parents are the most educated and informed that parents have ever been in the history and there's so much advice and it's so conflicting and it can feel like if you don't do everything right, you're failing and in reality you do not need to do everything right. You are going to have misses. You're going to miss some baby cues. They say that it's quite natural, like the best, parents miss 60% of their baby's cues.

Speaker 3: 24:34

So really bring it down a notch and take the good enough. Everybody is fed enough, getting enough sleep. I have checked in with my baby and given enough attention for this time. I can take a break now, give myself space, so just kind of focusing. In prior generations parents didn't have any of this information that we have now. They didn't really think about it like we do now. So if you are focusing on it, you are already so far ahead. So give yourself a pat on the back and go with the good enough mentality a little more often. Give yourself that space.

Speaker 1: 25:26

I love that. I think that's something we all can take away to this episode and just challenge ourselves to take a moment today and recognize like, hey, what is an opportunity for me to say this is good enough and I'm doing good, you know, I think it takes that first step right and just not being so hard on ourselves.

Speaker 3: 25:41

Taking a moment and giving yourself a pat on the back. I mean, I think every parent can do that. If you fed your baby, like I hope, I hope so and give yourself a pat on the back. You know it takes time, it really takes time On to a kind of a different.

Speaker 1: 25:58

I think it's important to address this, though, especially things that's kind of happening in the news right now with the challenge of treatment for maternal mental health and when we're talking about therapy and medication. So a mom may already have this concept of that they failed. If they're having to go see you, if they're having to take a medication, if I've never been in therapy before in my life and now I'm going in therapy because I can't be a mom, and what's happening, how do you kind of blow up that myth? How do you stop?

Speaker 3: 26:31

that negative thinking that they felt if they need treatment. So I would love to blow up that myth, but it is so deeply run in people that I don't know whether they will believe what I say. So, that being said, we know that treatment makes a difference. Children do better when parents get their postpartum depression or anxiety treated and a shift that I've seen.

Speaker 3: 26:59

So when I practiced as a family doctor, I saw all different sorts of people and, as I've transitioned to maternal mental health and gone down more this niche, the women who come to me are some of the most high achieving and most successful women, ceos and other people very accomplished people and they are the most proactive. They come, they want to plan, they don't want to have trouble, so they are much more proactive and it makes a difference. They do well because they are proactive. So they don't see getting support as failure. They see it as outsourcing and getting all the resources and doing what they need to do to have the best possible experience and enjoy being a mother and enjoy their baby. So therapy or meds aren't seen as failure. They're seen as tools for success and tools for enjoying motherhood. So I hope that people recognize this difference and really being proactive because we know we can make a big impact and give people a more positive, more wonderful experience.

Speaker 1: 28:24

And if the mom's going, you know, Jill, it feels like I missed the boat there. I wasn't proactive, right.

Speaker 2: 28:29

And now I'm suffering and I don't.

Speaker 1: 28:33

I'm still feeling like it's going really hard to have treatment. What do you want to tell her in that moment? To say, you know, to take kind of that step or take that fear away so that she will.

Speaker 3: 28:44

Yeah, and even if you are proactive and you do everything, we can't prevent all postpartum depression. We cannot. Sometimes life, genetics, hormones it is sometimes completely beyond our control. What we do know is taking medications work. They are effective. They are safe in pregnancy and postpartum. There are safe medications for nursing and when women get treatment for this, their children, their developmental and behavioral outcomes are better. Five years down the road, this makes a big difference. Five years down the road, this makes a big difference. So I see women that sometimes want to tough it out for their baby. They're not actually doing their baby a favor. It isn't better. Not treating is not better for your baby. Treatment makes a difference. It is safe, it is effective. It can really change the trajectory of your beginning with your baby and strengthen your relationship with your partner at the same time.

Speaker 1: 29:58

Yeah, I always tell people I said, you know, if I grab my chest right now I said I'm having a heart attack, no one would think twice about calling 911, getting me to the ER find whatever I needed. And we have to have that same kind of mindset when it comes to maternal mental health. Is that these are the steps. We want you to get treatment. We'll help you get treatment.

Speaker 1: 30:18

It's not just on mom, it's on her community, it's on her partner, it's on her provider. But I hate that we even have to have those discussions right of to say please seek treatment, because that's just where we're at in society. But in the fact is, is moms get better With treatment, you get better, it gets so much better and that, to me, is what I held on.

Speaker 3: 30:40

Absolutely, and one in 10 dads get postpartum depression and adoptive parents get postpartum depression and adoptive parents get postpartum depression. So this isn't anybody failing. This is a real biological entity that needs treatment, and just because therapy sometimes can make it better doesn't mean it's not a biological disease.

Speaker 1: 31:10

Yeah, I love that In the first four weeks of postpartum which I think that's I mean, I think the first four to six weeks are just, ooh, very, very, very difficult for everybody. What is something that you I know you talk a lot about this in your book, but what is something to take away? What's the most like impactful thing that, if a partner's listening because we get a lot of partners who listen, or providers we have residents and med students that like to listen on what is it? They're probably thinking, okay, what could I tell them? Like, hey, what is one thing that'd be impactful that could really help mom's mental health in that first kind of initial postpartum that they could do?

Speaker 1: 31:49

It's really hard for me to limit it to just one. Well, we'll take all.

Speaker 3: 31:51

We'll take all your tidbits, so one check in with how mom's doing. If you're visiting, don't just focus on the baby. Ask mom how are you really doing? How is this going? What has surprised you? Have you eaten today? Have you gotten enough sleep? How are you doing? And then help her get sleep. I can watch the baby so you can take a nap. Would that be helpful to you?

Speaker 3: 32:19

Third thing is proactively taking things off of mom's plate and off of parents' plate. Offer to do a load of laundry or to pick. If you're at the store, hey, I'm heading to the store tomorrow. Do you need anything? Bring meals. Checking in on what is helpful to them. And then something that I find very, very helpful is to help her get out of the house, and especially like that first trip to the grocery store with your baby is kind of stressful. So say, I'd be happy to be an extra pair of hands. Would you like me to come along? And hey, want to meet and we could take a walk, because it's like you don't know what you need and don't need to leave the house at first with your baby. So getting there active, getting there outdoors if the weather works, these are really good for your mental health. So those are just some simple ways you can make a difference.

Speaker 1: 33:24

Oh man, I mean, I remember thinking how am I going to get the car seat into the grocery cart? You know to like? I remember it was like what is happening, what happens at this? And then I did that all of my first. And when I had a second, I remember calling one of my friends who she has two or three kids. At that time I can't remember where she was at and I was going. So how do I do it now with the toddler, you know? So it's just that fear and you're, you think you're almost. I remember I was thinking I was like I can't admit to people, I'm nervous about going to the grocery store with a baby, you know.

Speaker 3: 33:54

But of course you know you have a cart full of groceries at the checkout and what if your baby begins crying? Or how do you change a diaper in a grocery store Do you have to? Or you know how do you navigate all of that. So it's your whole life. Every these little simple tasks that you would have done without a second thought all of a sudden become challenging and there's a learning curve to everything and it's exhausting. And you're doing all of this with so little sleep. You know so it's hard. So little sleep, you know so it's hard. Simple things become challenges and I think it's important to just normalize that and offer to be of support for someone.

Speaker 1: 34:37

Oh, I love that.

Speaker 3: 34:38

Yeah.

Speaker 1: 34:39

I love that. So if there is something that you could change about our healthcare system that would kind of help stop or really be preventative, like if there is something that you wish could see a change for how we go about this as providers, as a society, as a system, what would that be?

Speaker 3: 34:57

I would like to have postpartum depression prevention education available in all prenatal classes. Have that not just be focusing on the birth and the first latch, but then, after you get home and talking about your relationship and what to look out for and ways to take care of yourself. I really would like all birth classes to be changed and have it be a lot more about postpartum prep. Yeah, I think it's amazing.

Speaker 3: 35:33

If we could do like a policy change. I would love to have paid parental leave for all, because we know there's a really great study that came out and when parental leave is unpaid or when it's less than 12 weeks, we see an increase in postpartum depression and the shorter the leave, the higher the risk. So I would love to see paid parental leave for all.

Speaker 1: 36:01

Yeah love that Now I'm going to turn this one kind of a two-parter here right. First one is if every pregnant or new mom could hear one message from you, what would that be right now?

Speaker 3: 36:14

If it feels hard, it's because it is, and just because women have been doing this since the beginning of time doesn't mean that it's easy. It means that women are amazing. We really, really are. I've developed this deep, deep respect and connection for all women and moms after I became a mother. That's one message, and then the second is where to get support and to reach out quick and early and often for support, with Postpartum Support International. That is an international organization that provides resources, support groups, a list of trained therapists that you can connect with, as well as prescribers in your area. There are mother coaches listed there and even doulas, so you can get that extra support, not just through birth, but through postpartum.

Speaker 1: 37:17

Now a question personal to you if you could go back and tell Jill yourself, first time pregnant, what you know now, what do you wish?

Speaker 3: 37:27

Jill then knew I'm pregnant, what you know now. What do you wish? Jill then knew I would say to me I wish I knew that I need to pull my husband aside and say your life is about to change too and a visit here and there at the end of the day is not going to be enough. And when I wish I understood like I'd had lots of nights of very little sleep through residency and medical training and being on call. It's very different to be on call one in three nights, one in four nights, than every single night for 100 nights in a row, and the sleep deprivation becomes more intense the longer you go. So I would have wanted to pull my partner aside and say you will be taking night duty and we're going to figure out a plan and a schedule for it, and we're going to be flexible with breastfeeding so that some of this responsibility can be shared, because it's not physiologically healthy to have less than five hours of sleep for weeks upon weeks upon weeks. Yeah.

Speaker 1: 38:47

No, I resonate with all that Jill. This conversation has been so fun, so impactful. Now tell our listeners where can they find you and if they obviously will link your book. But where else can they find you?

Speaker 3: 39:00

My website is motherhoodsurvivalmanualcom. They can find me there. I am licensed in the state of California, so I can see clients either in my office or through telemedicine, for California residents only. And then there's postpartum support international and other services for out of the state Perfect.

Speaker 1: 39:29

Well, jill, thank you so much, and I love bringing leading voices and fight for mom's mental health onto the podcast for our listeners to connect, and this has been amazing, so thank you so much for your time. Thank you, sarah, it was my pleasure. All right, listeners, we will be back next week. I want you to have a wonderful week and if you need anything, always drop us a note. Thank you.

Speaker 2: 39:47

Maternal mental health is as important as physical health. The Preview Alliance podcast was created for and by moms dealing with postpartum depression and all its variables, like anxiety, anger and even apathy. Hosted by CEO founder Sarah Parkhurst and licensed clinical social worker Whitney Gay, each episode focuses on specific issues relevant to pregnancy and postpartum. Join us and hear how other moms have overcome mental health challenges, as well as access tips and suggestions on dealing with your own challenges as moms. You can also browse our podcast library and listen to previous episodes at any time. Please know you're not alone on this journey. We're here to help.