Replay Welcome And Setup

SPEAKER_01 0:00

Hey guys, this is Sarah with the Preview Alliance podcast. This month we are replaying our most downloaded episodes. These episodes are the ones that have resonated the most with you guys. So if you're a longtime listener, this is a great refresher and share this with a friend who may be new. If you're new, welcome, and we hope that these episodes are impactful to you like it has been for others. Thank you for being with us and stay tuned.

Postpartum Anxiety Versus Depression

SPEAKER_01 0:34

Hey guys, welcome back to Preview Alliance Podcast. It's Sarah and Whitney. Okay, we're in May, so we're in maternal mental health month. That's right. You guys know from last week we covered postpartum depression. This week we're gonna be called out. Postpartum anxiety. That would be me. Yours truly. So that was me. Let's start off with the difference between postpartum depression and anxiety. Just give us like a basic rundown here.

SPEAKER_00 1:00

So in a nutshell, depression is going to be more symptoms of the sad and the withdrawn, the isolation, the lack of motivation. We're gonna have teary episodes. We're gonna have self-deprecating thoughts, negative self-talk. We're gonna again have that lack of motivation. We may not be sleeping much, not based on baby schedule, but just as a whole. We're not gonna be sleeping much. We may not be eating a whole lot. Or it could be the extreme of sleeping all the time and eating all the time as a form of comfort. So we're gonna see almost, I hate to use this word, but for like a it's almost like a sluggish experience. Like you're in a fog and you just can't move.

SPEAKER_01 1:43

So visual people think of like post-prime depression like blues. Like think of the color blue and like you're down. Do like yours about thing, but like just very like it's hard to put one foot in front of the other. You're hopeless.

SPEAKER_00 1:57

It's the sad think about how in um oh I can't remember in Zootopia when they go to the DMV and you have all the sloths there and they're working so slowly. That is what depression can feel like because you don't have the get up and go. Right. And then you don't want to do that, you just want to be left alone.

SPEAKER_01 2:18

Because then that's a hopelessness, that's the um suicidal body feelings, audiations. Now, anxiety I feel is like red in a visual concept, like fear and like I get RNG vibes from it.

SPEAKER_00 2:35

Red RNG vibes.

SPEAKER_01 2:36

Stressful.

SPEAKER_00 2:37

It is. So with anxiety, you're gonna be more hyper-vigilant. So you're gonna be very aware. And that's more. And that is why you can't sleep, is because you feel like you're peaking all the time. Not necessarily that you're energetic. Somehow you find energy to stay awake, but it's because you're so convinced something bad will inevitably happen that you can't let your guard down. So it's so you stay on high guard all the time.

SPEAKER_01 3:08

Which that is like It's exhausting. It wears you down so quickly. And you know, so it's like literally, if you think about it, like maybe you're detached, you're disconnected, or you're hopeless that you're a postpartum depression, if you're that, then here's anxiety. It's like you're so almost so like I felt like I was so consumed with the thoughts of will, because I had so, and this is something we're separating the topics, but they are interchangeable that you can experience both. And so you can be like, Yes, I think I have postpartum depression, yes, I think I'm having some anxiety too.

SPEAKER_00 3:45

And you're right, you may be probably they can intertwine very easily.

SPEAKER_01 3:49

So, but the core of it is there's help for both. Absolutely. So don't feel like, oh, there's only X for postpartum depression, I have postpartum anxiety, I know, or whatever. Yeah, um, so know that both are, you know, temporary, we can get it treated, we can fix this, but the anxiety part I think is just as common as postpartum depression. But I don't think people so there's not even a true like diagnosis, right? In that um, what is the psychiatric book that you're gonna do?

SPEAKER_00 4:20

The DSM five.

SPEAKER_01 4:21

Right. And like, so I think that's part of the reason why postpartum anxiety is either grouped under postpartum depression or is just not spoken about, told, or educated.

SPEAKER_00 4:33

There's like a big umbrella term for it called the PMADs.

SPEAKER_01 4:36

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 4:37

And so that is pregnancy/slash postpartum or mental anxiety depression.

SPEAKER_01 4:43

Okay, so they just put everything under like one. They did.

SPEAKER_00 4:46

They kind of made a blanketed statement for it, which is not the worst thing in the world, but when you are speaking to your doctor and your therapist, you do want to get which they should be asking questions anyway, you want to get into the nitty-gritty of what you're actually experiencing. Like, what's these thoughts in your head? Well, because if you are seeking the route of a medication, you can do an anxiety medication or an antidepressant.

SPEAKER_01 5:11

And we got to decide what's, and you have to know the difference between the depression versus anxiety.

Hypervigilance Tracking And Sleep Obsession

SPEAKER_01 5:16

So, the anxiety to me, what I experienced, and like I was super hyper vigilant about tracking how much breast milk we'll have to the ounce. I was obsessive over his sleep to the minute, Winnie. Like, I would say his wake window should be something absurd, like a hundred and two minutes. And I would just watch that clock and I'd be like, I wouldn't put him down at 101, it'd be 102. And then I would just be like, Okay, now he's gonna sleep for approximately two hours. And if he didn't, that would send me over the edge. Over the edge. I remember someone being like, Are you really getting this upset about the minute? And I was like, Yes, and it was so important to me. Yeah, and I was like, Oh my gosh, now I can look back and I'm like, whoo! Red flag, red flag, big red flags, obsessiveness, literally killing myself to pump ounces so I could know how many ounces I had for him that day. And I had a log.

SPEAKER_00 6:25

Yeah, I used um the Glove Baby app, which no shame to them. It was a good app, and it did help me track wets and dirty diapers, it helped me track how much formula the girls were getting, their naps and sleep and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And I didn't necessarily get as obsessive with the feedings, which I do think formula feeding took that off of me. Let me just be real about that. Yeah. But the sleep I did become obsessive over. But also this, and I say this because this was meme, and this is such a, in my head, a textbook symptom of postpartum anxiety when you are so terrified or obsessive about SIDS, which is sudden infant death syndrome, that you can't sleep even when your baby is sleeping and you're following all the safe sleep rules. That is postpartum anxiety. And I say that because I lived it. I had it too. I made my life way harder than it had to be because I refused to sleep when my child slept at night. Same. Because I thought I had to stay up to watch her because if I didn't, she would die. Uh-huh.

SPEAKER_01 7:27

There was no if it was would. I mean, it was to the point sometimes I was counting his breaths per minute. I've done that during RSV. Uh-huh. And I was, and I think a lot of that new one helped me in the transition from NICU to that was that because like I felt at ease because he had monitors on him. And I didn't even know about the outlet immediately coming home. I had to do my own research, and then I think that has a great place. Um, like, but I also was obsessed with that reading number.

SPEAKER_00 8:03

Yeah. I will say for me, the snooza, which is the one we used with my oldest daughter, and then the outlet is what we used with my second daughter. The snooze at least just it was an alarm.

SPEAKER_01 8:12

It was an alarm. So the outlet was like 96%. And I'd be like, why is he not a hundred percent? Uh-huh. This were gonna go down.

SPEAKER_00 8:20

And I felt that way when Sammy had RSV and I had her outlet on her. Because I mean, one time I want to say she dipped to like 95. Yeah. Which is still not terrible, especially when you know you're dealing with RSV. But but yeah, I freaked out, and I can remember calling the pediatrician's office and I was like, hey, her O2 dipped down. You know, do we need to bring her in? What do we need to do? Blah, blah, blah, all the things. And they said, Well, give us her readings over however many hours it was. And I was like, Well, we've got a 97, we've got a 95, we dipped to 94 one time, we're back to 97, da-da-da. And then said, Okay, we're averaging at a pretty decent amount. Yeah. You know, what are her what is her respiration rate? It was like, how many breaths per minute are we taking? Because that tells us, are we using auxiliary muscles? Is she laboring to breathe? Things of that nature. And she wasn't, and they said, if she's not doing that and we're not dipping to 92 on her sets, it's okay.

SPEAKER_01 9:19

And it's just, I think it was it was a good product. I still like it. But to me, in that, I was really suffering. And then I was also suffering the sense that I had anxiety about driving

SIDS Fear Monitors And Reassurance Loops

SPEAKER_01 9:30

the car with him. Oh, yes. If you know, and those intrusive thoughts come in.

SPEAKER_00 9:35

Yeah, gotta love those.

SPEAKER_01 9:36

Where it's like, we're driving, what's if I get hit?

SPEAKER_00 9:39

What am I gonna do?

SPEAKER_01 9:40

What am I gonna do? And then or we'd be driving over a bridge, and I'd be like, Oh my god, what's if I drove off that bridge?

SPEAKER_00 9:46

Yeah, I've had those escape routes in my head before. I'm like, well, if I'm driving over a bridge, okay, I need to make sure I hit the sunroof button and I hit the window buttons, and then I go ahead and get back there and I start unbuckling and all the things. And my thought was get him out the sunroof. Yeah. And I'm like, and then before I'm even over the bridge, I have this escape plan.

SPEAKER_01 10:03

Well, mine was just like we kept going in my head. And I was like, why is these happening to me? And I didn't tell anybody what I was thinking because I was like, I'm crazy.

SPEAKER_00 10:19

So to kind of give a differentiation between postpartum depression and postpartum anxiety with these thoughts, postpartum depression, you're probably gonna have more of those self-negative talk thoughts of I'm not good enough, my baby deserves better than me, things of that nature. With postpartum anxiety, we're gonna have those intrusive thoughts that come from a place of protection. The original source of it is a good source, it is a source of protection, but then it snowballs very quickly into a worst-case scenario that's catastrophic. So, like you said, going over the bridge, and we had to make escape plans in our heads of what are we going to do. Right. And so, you know, again, with my oldest daughter of, well, if I sleep when she sleeps, she will die of SIDS. Yeah. Not, not maybe, but will. Yeah. Like there was that inevitable factor to it. So just know when you have those snowballing worst-case scenario thoughts that are catastrophic, they're devastating, they are tragic, that is postpartum anxiety.

SPEAKER_01 11:24

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 11:25

That is postpartum anxiety. When you find yourself, again, not able to sleep because you feel like something inevitable is going to be happening to that child.

SPEAKER_01 11:34

Can you have someone else who you trust and love take care of your child because you're so anxious that something will go wrong? That's a red flag. I felt like it was only me that could probably care for Will. Only me who could keep him safe, only me that can ensure he slept and ate. That was a problem. And I had the best. Yeah. So that I mean, but again, people are like, oh, you know, you're a new mob. You went through a lot with the birth, blah, blah, blah. And I'm like, okay. Now I'll look back and I'm like, oh my gosh, I should have got help so much sooner if I would have just known that this was even a thing. Yeah. No one told me about postpart anxiety. Yeah. Like, I'm a type one. Yeah. You're a type one. I am. Or type A as well. And type A means type anxiety, is what I tell a lot of clients. We love our control. We do. Um, and I think, and I think there's actually just studies to this as well. I'm not I can't quote anything else from my head right now, but I think those if we're like that before we become moms, it gets worse. Oh, for sure. Or intense if we don't do actions to recognize it and help our help us through it. Correct. And that's what happened.

SPEAKER_00 12:55

Yes. So if you are experiencing any of these things, the intrusive thoughts, the tracking of things, the inability to sleep for fear of bad things happening, like I said, that hypervigilance, that's staying on guard, reach out for help. That is postpartum anxiety, 1000%. And also anxiety can present physically. Yes. So you might be experiencing heart palpitations. You could be experiencing a shortness of breath. You could be getting kind of hot flashes, things of that nature. You could also have gastric distress. So, you know, your stomach may be churning all the time. You may have an appetite, but when you eat, you either throw up or it goes right through you. Uh-huh. Things of that nature, those are signs of anxiety. Not saying that there couldn't be a medical component. There could be. But if it's so new onset, chances are it's going to be anxiety. Yeah. Um, so with that, reach out to your provider, whether it was a midwife, whether it was a doula, whether it was your OB, reach out to them if you are open to a medication. Right. Now I know with breastfeeding options are limited, but there are options that have been heavily researched. Heavily. I would also encourage you to get on with a therapist, get in with your therapist if you already have one. Again, virtual thing, like in this day and age of COVID, if someone doesn't have virtual, I don't know how to help you. Yeah. Like, come on.

SPEAKER_01 14:23

Virtual is the key. And two, it's like it is. And you may, and I this is a risk factor, which we'll hit those in a second, too. But the if you are in pregnancy

Intrusive Thoughts And Catastrophe Spirals

SPEAKER_01 14:34

right now, you're pregnant and you're overwhelmed by anxiety. That is, we've covered it pre previously, that is prenatal anxiety. Okay. And so if you're experiencing that in pregnancy, the odds are you will experience that in postpartum. So that is when if you're pregnant and you're starting to say, I'm now like really having anxiety over, you know, is my baby okay? What I'm eating, what I'm doing, whatever it is, or fear, like so it the difference between worry and anxiety is worry, I think, can be like rationalized. Absolutely.

SPEAKER_00 15:12

And it doesn't take over.

SPEAKER_01 15:14

Anxiety will take over your life, all consuming intensity. So if you're having that during pregnancy, please reach out to your provider, get a therapy in. So again, this is research improvement. Therapy is an amazing treatment for anxiety and depression.

SPEAKER_00 15:34

Absolutely. So, and here's something, and we've talked about it in other episodes. When you experience those intrusive thoughts, try to take your deep breath and implement a grounding thought. So, to come back to the car on the bridge example, because I think that's a really good example to work with. You know, you're going over the bridge and all of a sudden you think, oh my God, what if we go over the bridge? What am I gonna do?

SPEAKER_01 15:58

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 15:59

Okay, take your deep breath first off. And then say, okay, I'm having that thought because I love my family and I don't want that to happen. Right. However, that has not happened. There's not an accident on this bridge currently. There's not a bad driver around me right now. I can slow down if I need to slow down. I am a good driver. I am in control of this car.

SPEAKER_01 16:24

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 16:25

So use your facts, bring yourself back to the present moment. Always, always, always bring yourself back to the present moment. Same thing if you think, oh, I'm carrying my baby down the stairs. Oh my God, what if we fall and they get hurt? And what if they end up in the hospital and da da da da da da? All of those kinds of things. Deep breath. Okay. I'm having those thoughts because I'm really scared that something could harm my baby.

SPEAKER_01 16:47

Right.

SPEAKER_00 16:48

All moms have that. That's protective. So, but where are you at now? Have you fallen down the stairs with your baby? No. Have you dropped your baby? No. So if that's the case, say, okay, those things have not happened. What is within my control to prevent that from happening? So maybe that means we get a closer grip on the baby. Maybe that means we take multiple trips up and down the stairs to get things, you know, where they need to go. Maybe I need to sit down and scoot down the stairs.

SPEAKER_01 17:14

Whatever you need to do in that moment. And a thought is a thought. And now even knowing what an intrusive thought is, that gives you power. Absolutely. Because you can name it to tame it. Yes. And so when this happens to you, if it happens to you, you know what to do. You ground yourself, like Whitney said. That's right. You remind yourself where you're at. And then when you're looking past, say that I had an intrusive thought. Yeah. There's a study. 80 to 90% of moms have an intrusive thought at some point. Oh, I'm sure. Okay. And then it's like with your in post-part anxiety, you're gonna have more frequent intrusive thoughts. And those intrusive thoughts can also be of you harming the child. And those are really disturbing to say out loud to someone. Yeah. But that does not mean that you are going to harm that child. Correct. And it would just be like, you know, oh my gosh, what's if I drop this child, or you know, what's if the knife somehow I'm chopping or whatever. Like and you sound and you feel like, why would I ever in my mind have that? And you know, I know research says there's even some sexual um harm thoughts that parents can kind of just like it flashes through their mind. Yeah, super disturbing when you experience that. And it freaks them out. I mean, what who wouldn't, right? Like you're just like, oh my gosh. Like how? Uh-huh. And those do not mean you're going to. And research has actually shown you're not gonna act upon that.

SPEAKER_00 18:41

Especially because if it freaks you out, you're not gonna act on that.

SPEAKER_01 18:45

So that is something that no one's no one says. But you know, we say good moms have scary thoughts. That's right. So we we know that anxiety is physically can be presented. We've talked about that. We've talked about how intrusive thoughts kind of can rain in this area. And the risk factors similar to most things is if you've had it family history or a personal history of anxiety or mental illness. If you're experiencing anxiety during pregnancy, yes, um, bel you know, we go back to loss, we go back to um miscarriages, we go back to if it's NICU, we if traumatic births, lack of support, lack of financial, medical stuff, medical stuff. So all these things, if these are occurring in your life, that is something that you need to just be more aware. We're not saying you're gonna have postpartum anxiety, but what we're saying is that be more on your radar. Yes, absolutely. The cause, not really sure, right? Like I think that's kind of I don't think there's one specific cause. I've heard that there is, you know, the we go back to the hormones, estrogen withdrawal can help exacerbate that anxiety level. Yeah. And you gotta remember we're being pumped with it, and then it goes away, and then we crash. So that's a whole thing there in itself, is that we do and I guess that's that's super irritating to me too. It's just like I always want to know why.

SPEAKER_00 20:10

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 20:10

And it's mental health, there's not always a concrete answer.

SPEAKER_00 20:14

Well, if we know the why, then we can fix it and prevent it.

SPEAKER_01 20:18

Uh-huh. And I can protect myself and I won't be vulnerable.

SPEAKER_00 20:22

Well, and here's the thing: there is not one specific why when it comes to mental illness, but especially postpartum and just maternal mental illness. Yeah, there's several factors. But if we can look at this list of risk factors and we say, okay, I'm checking off two, three, four, five of these, I know that I'm at a higher risk. I'm educated on what to look out for.

SPEAKER_01 20:44

My family, friends, no.

SPEAKER_00 20:45

Exactly. Just because we experience something doesn't mean it's a life sentence. No, no. Uh-uh. Like I mentioned in a different episode,

Physical Symptoms And Getting Help

SPEAKER_00 20:54

a diagnosis is not a character flaw.

SPEAKER_01 20:56

No, and just because this is what's happening, and let's let's not like forget that this is a huge major life adjustment. Okay, a child is your life is never gonna be the same. Yeah, and it's not like, hey, you know, I can go back to who I was before. No, you're not. So that also feels really scary, is because it's like, is this what it's always gonna be? No, there is help. You will get better. And the coping is something that really helped me is finding a safe person to talk to about it. Yeah, therapy. Yeah, therapy is a proven way for anxiety. So we talked about it's a safe space. Safe space, voice journaling, yes, grounding, meditation, positive affirmations, that's right, having and asking for help and support. Yes, baby steps.

SPEAKER_00 21:43

And being proactive. Again, if we have these things implemented in pregnancy, they're going to be there for a postpartum. We're better equipped to tackle it when it comes.

SPEAKER_01 21:54

So if you are struggling to get pregnant and you're already having anxiety, get in with a therapy. Session down.

SPEAKER_00 22:00

I would actually think infertility could be a huge risk factor for postpartum anxiety because so much of that is out of your control anyway. Yes. So I would just I would go out on a limb and say infertility and having to go through those treatments.

SPEAKER_01 22:13

100%.

SPEAKER_00 22:14

Which ironically, now that I'm saying that out loud because auditory processing here, I had to go through infertility to get pregnant with my oldest, and I definitely had postpartum anxiety with her. Yeah. I did not have to do infertility to get pregnant with my second. Right. And I did not have near the postpartum anxiety with her.

SPEAKER_01 22:36

Yeah. I believe it.

SPEAKER_00 22:38

So just saying I think there's a good little correlation there.

SPEAKER_01 22:42

And I think too, just knowing it's very common and a lot of moms are experiencing that, that should give you just some comfort that you're not alone.

SPEAKER_00 22:52

Absolutely. Even though it can feel isolating, that's kind of what previa is here for, is to kind of have a community where you know you're not alone and it's judgment-free zone.

SPEAKER_01 23:02

Uh-huh. We do not judge. And that's and that's something important with like I am Whitney is, of course, one of she's our lead Previa Alliance, a mental health therapist. But all our therapists are super great that, like, once you're in therapy, and I could come to you and say, I think I'm depressed or whatever, and we work through it, and I start being open and honest with you about my thoughts. You know what these thoughts are, you know their anxiety. Then there are screens, there are certain treatments that you can all bring in to really serve me best. It's just we gotta get to that door to you to start that relationship and let you do what you're trained for. Yeah, absolutely. So you it's it's honestly those first steps in forming that relationship with your therapist and then evolve and grow. Yeah, absolutely. Well, I mean, it I would have Whitney as my therapist all the time if I could, but you know, that's a little bit of a too close thing.

SPEAKER_00 23:58

I was about to say that's a conflict of interest. But Whitney's available. I like my license. I like having my license. I don't want the board to take it.

SPEAKER_01 24:06

No. Well, we will continue our conversation. Next week is going to be post-partum OCD, and we're here again in the month of May. That's right. Just to give education. Share this, um, follow us on Instagram, send us questions, DM us. We love that. And just know you're not alone. We're always here for you. That's right. Till next time. See ya. Maternal mental health is as important as physical health. The Preview Alliance podcast was created for and by moms dealing with postpartum depression and all its variables like anxiety, anger, and even apathy. Hosted by CEO, founder Sarah Parkhurst, and licensed clinical social worker Whitney Gay, each episode focuses on specific issues relevant to pregnancy and postpartum. Join us and hear how other moms have overcome mental health challenges as well as access tips and suggestions on dealing with your own challenges as moms. You can also browse our podcast library and listen to previous episodes at any time. Please know you're not alone on this journey. We're here to help.