Replay Month And Welcome

SPEAKER_01 0:00

Hey guys, this is Sarah with the Preview Alliance podcast. This month we are replaying our most downloaded episodes. These episodes are the ones that have resonated the most with you guys. So if you're a longtime listener, this is a great refresher. And share this with a friend who may be new. If you're new, welcome. And we hope that these episodes are impactful to you like it has been for others. Thank you for being with us and stay tuned.

Trigger Warning And Why This Matters

SPEAKER_01 0:37

This is Sarah, and this week, in honor of National Infertility Awareness Week, I have the honor of bringing back Erin and Stephen Mitchell from Couples Counseling for Parents to talk about how it impacts a couple when you're trying to conceive walking the road of infertility. So it's going to give a trigger warning for this episode. If you are not in the right headspace for this, please pause and come back to us next week or listen to us when you're ready. So stay tuned. Hi guys, welcome back to Previe Lions Podcast. And if you guys know from my intro, our favorite couples, bad parents, even Mitchell, couples canceling for parents. And this week, I am going to say, I said in the intro, I'm going to put a trigger warning. We are talking about infertility, trying to conceive. So if you're not in that headspace, it's too close. You maybe just had a loss. So you're just like, ah, that's not part of me right now. But take a pause, come back when you're ready. But Aaron Stevens, welcome. Thank you so much for having us.

SPEAKER_03 1:37

Thank you. We always love chatting with you, Sarah. So thanks for the opportunity.

SPEAKER_05 1:41

We do love talking with you. And this is so important. It's so, so important. And it's so vulnerable. And it's honestly sometimes so hard to talk about. So I think thank you for talking about it.

SPEAKER_01 1:52

Wow. So this week is National Infertility Awareness

Expectations About Getting Pregnant

SPEAKER_01 1:56

Week. So while we will touch on that, I think it's love just to kind of start and say, maybe what was each of your guys' impressions, like when we're all getting married and it's time to have kids. Like, how did you think the making children aspect would go? And maybe what was reality? And just kind of bring our listeners to your guys' own experience with that. That's such a good question.

SPEAKER_03 2:18

I think on some level, like I didn't think about it at all. I don't think I had an expectation. Aaron and I definitely we had talked about kids. We wanted to try and have kids, but it also wasn't an immediate thing that we were going to try to do right when we got married. And so there was some time. It was like, yeah, we'll down the road, and that'll be great, is how I initially thought about it. I think.

SPEAKER_05 2:42

Yeah. When I think about what you thought about, that will be great.

SPEAKER_03 2:45

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 2:46

Which I think tells a lot, well, that's gonna be great. Like when that day comes, that will be a great day, and that will be a great season, and that will be a great process. Yep. I did not have that, which I think is why I was very aware that you did. But I think for me, I had had very irregular periods my whole life. I saw a pediatric OBGYN when I was in sixth grade. Like things were just always a little bit different for me. Turns out at this stage of my life, like I'm very normal. I just have a normal for me kind of cycle. But I had been told, I mean, honestly, from the time I was 12, yeah, having a baby could be really hard for you. You don't have as many cycles, they're a lot longer, whatever, all these things. So I was just like, oh my gosh, I'm 12. That's a lot of information. And I had been scared about it forever. It had always been like, I don't know what that will be like. I don't know that my body can do it. I don't know. So I was nervous.

SPEAKER_02 3:36

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 3:36

A little bit out from us for a second, and we can totally come back in as soon as you want to. But I don't think a lot of couples talk about it. While I do think couples talk about, like, dude, we want kids, I don't think they talk about what they think that could be like at all.

SPEAKER_03 3:48

Or like you said, just the history, you know. So you, as woman who's gonna have kids, like you're thinking about that like your whole life from from the moment that you well, I mean, I guess the whole story about like what it's gonna be like to get your period and then be on your period and what that means. And like you have a whole experience of quote unquote childbearing or getting pregnant or trying to conceive that I don't. Yeah, I don't. And so and I think that that is a big disconnect, even in how we it's gonna be great. And you're like, since sixth grade I've been thinking about this, and I'm like, well, I haven't really ever thought about it. And I think that that's a big part of it too, that disconnect that then just carries throughout a relationship in so many ways.

SPEAKER_05 4:33

I think it can. And then I think to your point, Sarah, like, what are people's stories about this? How did you think it would go? What informed that? So yeah, I think it's a really important question.

SPEAKER_02 4:43

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 4:44

And it's one of those questions. I mean, maybe my husband never had that. You know, I tell people for some parts of your life, you try not to get pregnant, right? You're just like, that is your goal. So you both maybe like, what is what are we doing not to have this happen? And then when it switches, movies, Instagram, songs, make it so romantic. They make it easy, it's gonna be the first time. But like in your situation, you both have different expectations, worries, triggers about this. So when it comes time and the first try, you think, you may not even know about ovulation. You may not even know the time frames and how you don't have great odds of getting pregnant every month. And those odds decrease. So would you guys in your own for life and your couples you help see on this challenge of like, okay, it's not happening like in the movies?

Pressure, Age, And Vulnerability

SPEAKER_02 5:42

Right.

SPEAKER_01 5:43

Where do we start separating from a couple and kind of like battling it out?

SPEAKER_05 5:49

I think for many couples, and I think that this is a I mean, you even said your odds change. So I think I'm gonna be really direct, and it's probably not universally true, but I think the younger the couple, the less friction between a couple. But I think the older a couple, or at least the older the potentially pregnant person gets, they're very aware of that. That is like a thing that they're thinking of, and like we don't even know. And so I think that even then now the conversation about like, so we'll just use me and Stephen again, like I'm ready. Steven's like, we should wait. And I'm like, you're asking me to wait and almost guaranteeing it's going to be harder, which isn't actually necessarily true, but that's how we hear it, right? Like that is uh like you're making this harder and you're putting a lot more pressure on me. And I think it pressurizes the entire situation immediately. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 6:37

Well, you know, and I think too, there's this whole dynamic. So you're talking about your body and you're talking about sex, and you're talking about some of the most vulnerable, yes, vulnerable parts of who we are as people, right? And so what do we often do with vulnerable things? We don't talk about them. We we protect them. Yeah, we protect them. We we kind of like, oh, you know, we don't need to get into that yet. And I think that one of the things that is so challenging in trying to conceive, and then if there's difficulty, or if there's a pregnancy loss, or if you try to do fertility treatments, all these kinds of things, it's so vulnerable because it's your body. And I think that couples struggle to talk about their bodies. I think our society, our culture also struggles just to talk about your body when it would be so helpful. Like, so you said you don't even know about ovulation, right? How come for me, as someone who identifies as a male, like what's the problem with me learning about the female body and learning about ovulation and learning about menstruation and learning about like all these kinds of things, because that that is vital to this whole process, and yet we don't say like, yeah, you should do that. And I think that it's such a that creates some of the vulnerability and intensity and difficulty as well. Because I think so much of the struggle trying to conceive, or if you're dealing with infertility, is if you could just talk openly with your partner about how you feel in your body, whether it's male factor infertility or female factor infertility, you know, all those kinds of things that could be so connective to be so vulnerable with your partner dealing with such a challenging, hard thing, but to feel so close because you're willing to sit there and be like, Hey, I'm talking to you about the most intimate thing, and we're okay. We're doing it, we're learning, we're being curious, you know, like that could be so healing in a lot of ways.

SPEAKER_05 8:39

I think I'm thinking about, yes, I think I'm also thinking about like the male factors you talked about. I think so often this feels like a female problem. I think it feels like, well, that's in my body. It's my responsibility to chart, it's my responsibility to gnome where I am in my cycle. And even if like Stephen was very involved of all in all of that, because for a long time we were trying not to conceive. And Steven was like, I will definitely wake up at 5 a.m. to take your temperature.

SPEAKER_03 9:05

And we would chart the we kind of chose to chart cycles and to start.

SPEAKER_05 9:09

And that was something that was recommended to me when we got married. Like, oh, if someone has told you it could be harder for you, you should get to know your body as much as you possibly can now. And I was like, Great idea. Uh, but I didn't know to do that. If that one practitioner had not said that, I wouldn't have. I I would have had no idea.

SPEAKER_03 9:26

And you also came to me as as my partner and said, Hey, you need to get to know my body and the body, like not my job, but it is in my body.

SPEAKER_05 9:36

And I think that's where it's a really, I don't know, like I'm just like sort of shaking my body. I know people can't see me, but like it's difficult to explain that. Like it is me because it is my body, but this cannot be on me exclusively. This has to be an us thing. But there is also like sperm health, like the health of the man does contribute a great deal to all of this, but that is even lesser talked about and feels somehow way more fragile a conversation for a lot of the couples we talk

The Invisible TTC Mental Load

SPEAKER_05 10:05

to.

SPEAKER_01 10:05

You know, I hear this story and it seems like, okay, we're gonna start trying, right? And there may be no plan to it. And you can and then a couple of months pass and you're just like, wait, what? And then I call it the invisible labor load starts on the woman, right? She's Googling, or she's and then she's going, oh crap, I have to take these emulation sticks and I'm taking my temperature. She may start sharing that with him. She may not. She may feel like, oh, well, I was doing it wrong, right? Like, well, we're doing the wrong time. So it's my responsibility. It's, you know, again, back to my body. And then maybe the fun of it starts going away because instead of, oh, spontaneous moment, it is, hey, Tuesday at noon, buddy. This is when this needs to occur. And then the guy's going, like, and I know this from personal experience. My husband's like, I felt like very used, abused, a piece of me. And I was like, I don't care if this is a common goal. And it felt so hard. And we talked about it now. We laugh about it now. We were not laughing at that moment. And it felt to me like, this is our moment. You can't do something that you should be wanting to do with me in this moment. But he didn't because he was like, you were insane, controlling, crazy woman, being like basically giving your sperm. Right. But I was like, I can't go through in my head. I was like, it's a failure I feel every month when I get my period. It's a delay of, you know, our odds are getting worse. And I had we hadn't had a diagnosis of anything wrong yet. But it's it's like, well, what if we have infertility? You know, all these things is in on me. And he's going, she's crazy. She's demanding to have sex at Tuesday at 12. And if I don't, she's going to murder me feeling.

SPEAKER_03 11:49

Right, right. Well, I so I think, and and I think this makes all the sense in the world, that is the beginning of the whole mental load conversation. Because, and this is a real cultural societal thing, I think. We place the responsibility of having kids on a woman. When if you choose to try to have kids, the responsibility needs to be on both partners. And I think that that is where things get confused. The reason the, you know, if we're talking about mixed-gendered relationships, the reason the man feels like a piece of meat is because the societal script is all you're good for is your sperm. All you do is you impregnate your partner and then you just sit around and wait until the baby comes. Like that is Well, then you keep sitting around. Yeah, right. That that that's the perspective. Whereas if what we're talking about is, you know what, I have a role. I have a role to be healthy, I have a role to be involved in understanding what's happening for my partner. You know, how do I help track the cycles? How do I recognize, like, hey, you know what? We need to have sex at 12 on Tuesday because that's when you're ovulating. And like, why shouldn't I be the person who's also thinking about that? And rather than just feeling like a piece of meat or a machine, and and I get how it happens. I mean, I felt some of the very same things too. So I'm calling myself to a level of accountability in this after the fact. But how can you look at the processes? This is a collaboration between the two of us to move towards something that we both desire and want, and that in our work together, there can be connection and intimacy. And I think that that's another thing. Getting pregnant is working together with your partner. It isn't just like some magic, like, yeah, all that. And it can be that too. But I think our perspective is just wrong about the whole process.

SPEAKER_05 13:43

So, and I think part of why, I would say a large part of why, especially in the when it isn't just that my mom used to say, like, oh my gosh, you you know, your aunt, she would sneeze and get pregnant. Like, I think we all have these sort of like little anecdotal things, like, oh yeah, they just talk about getting pregnant and she's pregnant or whatever. Um, that one are not entirely unhelpful because we never know what is happening for any couple, ever. Even when you think, you know, and we have learned this about people because, like, oh my gosh, we thought, we thought we knew and we didn't know. And same for us. Um, but we're talking about fear and we're talking about desire.

Fear, Control, And Nervous Systems

SPEAKER_05 14:22

And and you referenced to this earlier, Stephen. But when we are wanting something so much and we don't know if we're going to be able to get it, we have lost control. And this is a coming to grips with we don't have control. Like we we have a lot of things we can do, we have a lot of options and that we're growing in those. Um, but we we can't just decide to get pregnant and get pregnant. That's not how it works. And I think that people do different things in that. That's a nervous system reaction. And I think we aren't talking about that. So some of us, sounds like the Sarah's, certainly the Aaron's, we get informed, we get proactive, we get on a schedule, we get like there's probably some alerts in your phone, like there's and and that is uh heightened. So we would say that partner has elevated. We may not say that that's a stress response. We might say that's just a good idea, but it is a good idea perhaps it is also a stress response. And very often couples are balance seeking. And so that other partner, not on purpose, not to try to disengage, but like, what's the point of us both elevating? Yeah. I'm not trying to make you worse. So I do think, and not that intentions excuse impact, but I think the intention of like, hey, let's just calm this down. Let's just like, whoa, is an attempt to try to be a kind partner. I think it is perceived. I think it is felt. I think really the impact is like you're leaving me alone here. Like I'm I'm alone. And the other person feels like I I'm just trying not to make it worse. I'm just trying to be like, hey, I'm steady, I got this.

SPEAKER_03 15:57

You well, and you're battling because I think so they down uh right. They downregulate, they down, and and I I mean, I remember we uh had interactions and conversations.

SPEAKER_05 16:08

Escalation, all of it.

SPEAKER_03 16:10

Well, really, you were just like, I'm just asking for you to be engaged right at at a level that feels um commensurate with mine. And and I think for me, you know, my thought would be like, well, you're too engaged about this, you're too anxious about this. But the reality is. And don't you know there's research that says if you would chill out, your cycle would like well, and and I think again, that goes back to the whole perception of like, I am missing a whole story that is happening for Erin in this process of like what it means to have kids. And she is not overanxious, she has a different experience, a different reality. Her body is engaged in a very different way, and she's just sitting there saying, Don't you get that? And I'm like, Hey, why don't you just calm down? You know, like it's not, and that that's so unhelpful.

SPEAKER_05 17:06

But we both don't know our stories. That's not what I'm saying. I'm not saying I'm so scared and there's so much happening in my body, and I wish you'd be with me. I'm like, hey, I I forget how you said it's here, but something like, hey, bud, Tuesday, 12th. And read, you know, like the subtext, and that is, I'm so nervous. Yeah, you're with me, right? Like you're gonna be there. You're you're we're still in this together, right? But that's not the direct text, right? Um, and that's that is so hard to know that direct text because we're did I say direct text? Yeah, that direct text because we're scared. We're really scared. We feel so vulnerable. It is such a vulnerable time in a couple relationship.

SPEAKER_02 17:44

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 17:45

And it takes, do you have couples who say, you know, all the fun's out of it, all the passion's out of it? And where do we go from here? Because then both shut down. And you have to try for a certain amount, depending on your age, months, right? To get pregnant before the doctor will go. So what do you tell those couples who are like, okay, we've we're we've got a couple more months to try, but we don't feel like trying. We fight, you know, the leading up week is hell. The two-week wait. Oh, yes. We all are, you know, am I pregnant? Is that a twitch? Is that implantation? Totally. And when the period comes, we both mourn together or she mourns and he goes and kind of disassociates, or, you know, what do you tell him if that in that moment?

SPEAKER_05 18:31

Yes. Well, I I think to probably overstate, but I think that there are ways to connect in that stress, but only if you're willing to engage with yourself. But we don't want to. I don't, I mean, anyone who would be like, I don't want to, I don't blame you. So I just want to say, like, I maybe do as I say, not as I did, because it's vulnerable. You we we can't just walk around just raw and exposed all the time. We do have to um, you know, protect ourselves in some way, but we also have to have moments with our partner and with ourselves where we are allowing ourselves to acknowledge what what is the fear here? What is the desire? What are we hoping for? What stories are we telling ourselves about ourselves, also about our partner? I think it's also really worth noting, at least for me. This was a big time part of our conversation about this isn't fun. Like sex, sex was remember what sex was fun and like we liked it. And it was some of us have internal sex organs and some of us have external sex organs. And that was a time when we were trying to get pregnant that I was so grateful for an internal sex organ. Uh Steve was like, All you have to do is lay there. Like, you you're not into this, you're not even pretending to be into this. Like, how am I supposed to be into this? You're like literally like a and I'm like, Yeah, you're right. And I'm not into it. This is not because I'm attracted to you. This is not because I particularly even like you. This is a stated goal. We have an objective and get to work.

SPEAKER_03 19:57

And and I think like, uh, how do you make something work when you feel this way?

SPEAKER_05 20:02

It's so um, and I mean we're able to laugh about it now, and I think you said this in the beginning too. It's like funny now, but it it wasn't funny then.

SPEAKER_03 20:09

Um it was on on some level too. I mean, so I think it's such a good question, and I think where where we often interact with couples is after all of this has happened, and after they're because to your point, Aaron, in the midst of of getting trying to get pregnant, or if there's infertility or if there's pregnancy loss, combination of all of those things, it is survival. It's so it's so chalked full of vulnerability, intimacy, grief. And and it and in some ways, like it's so hard to be engaged and to be thoughtful and to say how yeah, this is what I'm feeling. And many times we couples come to us after um they are done trying, or they've act finally been able to, you know, have um a kid or kids, and then they're processing all of this after the fact. Yes, because it doesn't go away, and and it doesn't, I and I think that that that's um that can be done. I think that that's really um important. Um the processing you mean the the processing after the fact. But I do think again, one of the things that could help in the moment in the in the actual like experience of it is for partners to have a shift in their view of what they're doing. It's not your responsibility or my responsibility, it is our responsibility. It is it is our opportunity to do something special together. And it's hard. And it's a there's a lot of hard work in whatever in then it's learning the language of what can I do to communicate to you that I'm engaged and I'm with you in your experience. of this of this journey. And I think that that's really tough because it's like, man, that that takes some work before. Like, like you said, like what were your expectations? And what did you think about? Like, well, yeah, there's there needs to be that question.

SPEAKER_05 22:15

Um and it's also never too late for that question.

SPEAKER_03 22:18

And a processing during. And I know a lot of infertility uh clinics have um you know mental health uh practitioners or individuals who are working with um couples during this period of of time. Uh but I a lot don't know. Yeah but I think that there's a very specific part of um story discovery and understand like Aaron said the story like oh my aunt sneezed and she got pregnant. Those stories are really important to know and there has to be someone helping couples process those things because that is informing how someone feels about their infertility oh you know I'm I'm really broken. Like I can't just sneeze and get pregnant. There's something really wrong with me. And so I think that there's there's things you can do before during and after I just think it's so hard at times because it's so it's so chalked full of grief and loss and hope and desire and that it's just hard to be engaged with yourself.

Boundaries And Weekly Check-Ins

SPEAKER_05 23:15

The other thing that stands out to me as you're talking is how much and we had to do this too but like setting some parameters about when we talk when we don't when we I mean even for myself I because I was always I'm trying to think if we ever in our trying to conceive phases if I was ever not the one who was at the elevated energy levels that my stress should go up. But I I was having a hard time thinking about anything else. My brain space was 99.99999% of the time occupied with I mean I was in every like the two week wait club the trying to conceive club the like you know like all these moments every month. And I think that I don't think that's bad. I don't look back on myself and regret that or think like oh gosh you really should have done it better. But I do think partners it starts to be like this is the only thing we talk about. And I think a lot of times and and I and I don't think that has to be bad. I'm not trying to say so if someone's listening and like that is the only thing we talk about or is the only thing I think about I think that can be okay but I think being able to even openly talk about that but but sometimes it is helpful to establish some boundaries like you know what on Tuesdays we don't talk about that. Um or I I try really hard to only check any of my little clubs or my you know my temperatures or check my chart only in the morning or whatever is your own good boundary and and to do your best um to try to commit to that and then be open about that.

SPEAKER_03 24:46

We we tell couples all the time like a Sunday night check-in or whatever night check in doesn't really like you could have your your pregnancy team meeting you know like you said you know we're gonna set Tuesdays where we don't talk about it. I mean that's a great idea you can also set like hey on Sunday night we are going to talk about it so we can ask all the questions we can check in with each other say all the fears. If if I've been thinking about something this week I like I hold on to it until then like so that you just know that you know and it doesn't mean you can't talk about these things outside of it but you can even be like hey this conversation feels like uh for our Sunday night like team you know pregnancy team meeting like can we can we hold it till then like I I'm just not ready to like give the energy I want to give to it and like or the best deserves.

SPEAKER_05 25:32

Because I think when when we polarize each other which is what happens to most couples we are balance seeking people. So the person who is escalated is elevated they feel like I have to try to get some sort of feedback engage engage engage engage like say something do something and the truly and it's terrible for me but the more I do that the more Steven disengages and the more Stephen disengages the more I do that.

SPEAKER_03 25:58

So because it feels like on the other end it's like it feels controlling or it feels overwhelming or it feels like you know like all of those kinds we like to think that what we hear and I mean you're that person but I also think that people think I'm I don't want to make it worse I don't want to make it worse.

SPEAKER_05 26:14

The best thing I can really do for them is to just stay low and calm and it's truly almost always the worst. But if we can just elevate to a neutral place. So like if I know that on Sunday Steven's gonna come and he's gonna have things to say and he's gonna you know tell me about what he's been thinking and then I can it soothes me it really does bring me down. Um and I think that someone has to start because everybody's like oh no I'm not gonna elevate because if I elevate it's gonna send her through the roof and I'm like I'm not gonna downgrade if I go down Steven's like we're never gonna talk about it. Yes so I think that it really has to be that person who tends to go down. It is their job to come up first. It really I think almost always has to be because it it that person who's already escalated has to know like oh you're oh you're consistently doing this.

SPEAKER_03 27:04

You're still okay you're checking in and and then that soothes me that helps that down regulator know you know what if I actually engage and not just once it has to have a there has to be some pattern. Consistently if I if I do that it actually helps my partner feel at ease which also helps me not feel overwhelmed because there's some level of um collaboration around how we're doing this and and you know there's uncertainty about if we're going to get pregnant or not but there's at least certainty that we're going to talk about it and how we talk about it.

SPEAKER_05 27:41

Well if that helps this feeling of we are doing it together. Yeah doing all of it together.

SPEAKER_01 27:48

We're in this together you know because I think it's again this is a conversation affects way more people than we think right because it's like I looked up some statistics it says at least one in six times I tend to think it's more um and you know and it's say you know we talk we handed a little bit of male factor fertility it says it contribute 30 to 50% of cases.

SPEAKER_04 28:09

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 28:10

And I think there's this shame because again cultural perspectives of women get pregnant carry the baby be the best mom you know you breastfeed you forget blah blah and then there's the mineral you impregnate her like you know it's like right yeah you're sperm and like this is what you're made to do. And then when either one of those said you know because I had a uterus issue where I had to have septum surgery twice like you know I physically it was a viable pregnancy was not an option till I had surgery you know so there was there were things we had to do. So I remember thinking well what's if the surgery don't work my body's failed I fell I've not come into my heart right I didn't really express that to my husband at the time and then it really was like well does he want to be with me if we can't have kids when we want someone different so I think we go into this whole conversation when there is an issue identify. So now when we've said okay Sarah had a uterus issue let's say this you know let's say he had some kind of infertility issue here right we both now play these narratives well what's if she don't want to be with me what's if he doesn't it's my fault like now there's actually kind of something in the medical chart that says hey Sarah your uterus is not shaped right how does that conversation then kind of continue because it does feel very I mean it's hard to not to recognize it like there's an elephant in the room like hey yes this is what we're gonna have to figure out.

Shame, Blame, And Relationship Lenses

SPEAKER_05 29:39

So I think that that like I I understand that what we're talking about is infertility in this moment, but I think that's a universal couple thing because we have yet to meet the couple and I get where we deal with a specific population of people who are working through some things and like wanting to be their healthiest but couples always have that thought. That like did you mean this I failed what have I done right it's I mean it can be job loss. It can be like my mom died and I became a different person. Like you probably didn't marry this version of me like but I get what we're talking about. But I to be very clear I think that's a conversation we always have to be having because we are a hundred different versions of the expected plan throughout the course of a relationship. But there is this thing you said it like now it's in my medical chart. This is not in my mind it's there it's like a thing and it's real and and we can't ignore it but we can and I think that's what a lot of people do. I think you said too like you didn't tell your husband that it's too scary.

SPEAKER_01 30:40

Like because what if the answer is no yeah what's if he was like I have to have kids this is something I have to have yeah that's right.

SPEAKER_05 30:48

Yeah and and then I think that we have to be willing to ask the question knowing that we don't know the answer.

SPEAKER_03 30:55

Because you're asking it no matter what if you whether you say it or not and and I think that that creates a lot of mystery in a relationship if we're holding on to things and not saying things. And that creates a lot of tension and conflict and and understandably I mean I get why you oh yeah you would want to hold on to that or not say it. But I think that that's one of the things we talk about with with couples all the time. You the scary thing that you're afraid to say you are saying it regardless of if you've verbalized it or not. And it's better to verbalize it and to name it so that there's not mystery. Because when there's mystery between partners around those kinds of things there's so much anxiety and that generates a lot of conflict and disconnection.

SPEAKER_05 31:42

Well it also necessarily changes the lens that we are looking out at the world. So we one of the I would say one of the primary things we do with couples is try to help them find where their lens shifted where I started to believe something that about my partner that and about myself about myself and about my partner that that I never confirmed but I I was I was afraid was true. And there are usually some sort of key moments that it's like this happened and then it's usually around this period of our relationship trying to conceive pregnancy trying to conceive pregnancy and then pregnancy loss and fertility like these moments. Yes and and we believe it we didn't mean to we didn't have that thought in our brain but it's just like and then we start seeing our partner through that lens. So if if in this example I think that Steven may not want to be with me. I keep having pregnancy losses I like we aren't getting pregnant he may not want to be with me. I'm going to see every decision like he stayed late we were supposed to have our talk about pregnancy tonight like this is our our meeting about he's hasn't even brought it up that's because he like he doesn't want to be with me he's he's already checking out one foot out the door and I confirm everything through that just self-preservation. I mean it's not no one's meaning to do that. And then it stacks and it builds and now I have years worth of data that supports me. That's like you really didn't and Steven's like what? Like you know and and but Steven's doing the same thing in a different way. The only thing Aaron cares about anymore is this pregnancy. Like if we can't have a baby she's not even herself. She doesn't care about me. She's not I don't like there's no way into her anymore so you withdraw you know it's we all do it but it's so important to say it out loud. So the thing you most you don't want to say at least you have to start practicing saying it to yourself.

SPEAKER_02 33:33

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 33:33

And you sort of grow your strength and your courage and then you do say it. You say the thing and that's you don't know the answer.

SPEAKER_03 33:42

And and I think that thing Sarah to that specifically that thought of my body has failed and it's my fault. Right. I I think on some level there's this great philosopher who wrote a book um his name is AW Frank and he wrote a book called At the Will of the Body and one of the things this is kind of a little philosophical but I think it applies he and he talks about the medical community and I'm grateful for medicine and I think medicine is wonderful. But caveat noted but there's there's one of these there's this perspective that we actually are control of our body like we can control it. Medicine can fix it we can take this we can get the surgery like we like we actually control our body and he said I think that that creates a a really difficult dynamic for individuals we do not control our body if our body wants to do something our body will do something the i if you even just think about death no one can control whether that happens or not we are at the will of our body and I think in some ways this whole perspective around pregnancy and whose fault it is and if we can understand like my my partner doesn't have control in a sense if their uterus needs surgery or if uh there's something different about a sperm count. Now yes can we do some things that does medicine allow us that's where I was coming next like does medicine allow us these phenomenal like interventions absolutely that is amazing information to nourish our bodies to be the best right exactly it doesn't mean you treat your body like trash but but it does mean that there's a different perspective I think between partners that takes care of that idea of blame. And yes do we have to be accountable and do we have to like do what we can but also like it's no like it's not someone's fault no if their uterus is shaped different or if they um their sperm count is really low and they can't they've done all the things they can do. Like I think that that's the the important piece. And I think just that understanding um I at least in conversations with other couples yeah I think even in our own conversation like we are on some level our body it's our job to take care of that. Right and and then our body does what our body does and and we we can't always do something about that. And that's not is that someone's fault well I don't know who am I gonna but like yeah I don't know it just it it feels like it's a potentially useful perspective.

SPEAKER_05 36:33

Sure. I think it is I think one other thing so we our first pregnancy loss we were in therapy which you said most people don't come to us in those seasons. We are not normal some people do highly recommend but we are I mean we both have counseling background so of course we were going to and at one point I was like what if it is my fault like and I and I said the hard thing because that's what I was thinking and that's what I was trying not to say and I'm like but what if it is what if I am doing something what if it is my body what if it's my fault and Stephen's like it's not like stop saying that and I was like stop saying that yeah what I need to hear from you is what if it is what do you think of me? What do you feel about me? What what does that mean? And and he was like he looks at our therapist I will never and he was like can you tell her like stop saying that like this isn't helpful and our therapist was like no I think you need to engage her if you think it's not her fault what if she needs to know that even if it is your feelings don't change that you're like and Steven's like I feel like I've said that over and over and I'm like no you haven't you've said it's not my fault. Like what if it is like let's and I think that sometimes couples need to have that reckoning too like what if it is my uterus what if what if it is I need to know where we stand. Um and I and I think that that's an important thing. That was important for me because I needed to say like well even if it is my fault I also forgive me.

SPEAKER_03 37:55

I'm not doing anything on purpose but like okay like this is who I am then I need to I need to have like an internal reckoning of okay and and I had to have the reckoning of this is not an important question for me because I don't blame I don't blame Aaron and I would like I would never do that and I love Aaron like I don't care like you know like like that was never a question that was never a question for me but I was like and what I had to accept is this is a question for Aaron. And Aaron needs to ask herself is it my fault Aaron needs to even say like you know what I think it is my fault and and I don't need to like try to talk me out of do anything other than be like okay you know what like I don't I don't blame you. I don't hold that against you I understand though that you need to ask yourself that question and let's talk about it.

SPEAKER_05 38:47

And I the piece for me which was like and if it is I choose you I love you. I I and and I think to your point though Sarah I don't think everybody does have that answer. Either way to your point Steven we have to know we cannot live in these secrets and we cannot have I mean that that is where lies grow is in our brain and in our bodies and um they come between us one way or another.

SPEAKER_02 39:13

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 39:14

So yeah and I think you know you guys hit the nail on the head too is I look back and I'm like gosh I wish we were in therapy trying to um get pregnant and then post miscarriage I wish we were in therapy and then how much more that would have equipped us still with postpartum depression and you know and then parenthood because it goes from once it does occur, it does seem like zero to a million and then you do all these live transition seasons so quick together you have this new human and you've never dealt with that hurt of when you were trying you never dealt with the pregnancy which we have a great episode guys go back and look for it um with Aaron and see about, you know, when you're pregnant and it feels so off like one slided and um and then in postpartum or you know lost you know we never took those moments and it all literally does compile inside of us. That's right and then our kids or toddlers and or babies and it explodes and then where we find ourselves in your guys's office going well you know actually it started a Tuesday at 12 where he did want to just have sex with me. That's right.

SPEAKER_03 40:22

Yeah yeah and he's going yeah oh yeah exactly right and I think that what's what is so important is that's why our experiences and our stories matter and no matter how far we are from those things we can always go back. And I think that that's a beautiful well they're very present in our bodies.

SPEAKER_05 40:45

That's right that's right going all that far back.

SPEAKER_03 40:47

True true but but I think a lot of people are like well that Tuesday at noon shouldn't matter anymore. We're we're here now and we we've got kids and we we should just be happy.

SPEAKER_05 40:58

Or we don't and we have come to be okay with that. Like why are we still stuck in this dark time in our life.

SPEAKER_03 41:07

And it's not it's not about getting stuck there. It's just um you know if you've ever had something really important or exciting or you know something that you wanted to share you know with anyone in your life you know it to not be able to share it hurts. It it like you lose part of yourself. And so on some level it's just this is part of your life that you want to tell your partner about on on some level it it might not even be more than that. It's just like hey do you remember when this happened like this is just something I was thinking about and feeling and I've never been able to say it. And in saying it there's two things that happen from a neuro like a neurobiological standpoint. You tell yourself the story and someone else bears witness to it. And when that process happens that is connection and that is how we know we're human. There's this whole thing called intersubjective experience about how do how do people um feel like people and it's you know you think about a kid who's crying right they could they they're hurt and they're crying and what they need is they need that caregiver to come up to them and be like oh my goodness you fell and you scraped your knee and you're crying and it hurts. I'm bearing witness to your experience and what happened and you know what that does for that little kid they go oh and you know they might cry a little bit longer because it really does hurt but they they feel seen and they feel like oh when I fall and I scrape my knee and I cry someone says you've fallen you scraped your knee and you're crying and that is intersubjective experience that that that is what neurobiologically happens when we interact with people and that does not change ever. When we are adults we need people to go oh my goodness you have wanted kids for so long and this has been such a hard journey and this Tuesday at noon was part of it and it impacted you in a way that mattered I see it I hear it I bear witness to it that makes us human and that makes us okay I love that how do people find a you guys um because I think this is a really people you know are going wow we we

Finding The Right Counseling Support

SPEAKER_03 43:30

need help or gosh yeah I'm listening to this or we have kids now but I I wanted to listen to this because we walked this road and you get you know how do they find the right professionals to walk through this and you know as we said before one partner may be more like oh I'm gonna research I want to find this person book our appointment then we have to drag the other partner.

SPEAKER_01 43:52

So where do you advise people the next step that won't help?

SPEAKER_03 43:57

That's a great question.

SPEAKER_05 43:58

It's a tricky question. It is a woman I mean our knee-jerk is always us.

SPEAKER_03 44:02

Well, yes, this is why this is part one of the reasons we do what we do is because we're we couldn't find anyone who would. And we're like, you know, when we were going through our pregnancy school, if we mentioned pregnancy loss, your research that that's true, yeah. So for for my PhD research, I I uh researched the impact of pregnancy loss and infertility on a couple, and so is it and the reason we did that because we did do that together, you've got um I don't have a PhD, but I kind of have it honored in my own mind. Yes, you do, you do that. The reason we did that is because no one was doing it, and no one no one was there to, like in our estimation, to help couples walk through this, and so again and to get how that season impacts forever.

SPEAKER_05 44:49

Like we did we got through it, like where it wasn't something we were surviving every day, but it was still very much a part of our journey and in our bodies and the way I shaped the myelins, and it had to be worked through. But but the reality is is that when people, you know, find people think like I can just go to anybody. Um, and just like anything, you can't be best friends with everybody. You're just not everybody is not for you, you're not for everybody, and that's actually a really good thing. Um, and that is also true with a fit for talking through these things. Yeah, everyone is not a good fit, and people sometimes try to push that square peg right into that round hole, and it just you shouldn't. It makes it worse.

SPEAKER_04 45:27

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 45:28

Um, so I do think asking the questions like, do you have experience with this and checking it? Because a lot of people say they do. Um, yes, you know, or like I have my sister's brother had a kid or whatever. I'm being silly now. But like it does matter your experience and how aware of all of these things you are, because it's it's so important to have experience with these exact things.

SPEAKER_03 45:52

Yeah. And so I think you have to ask questions to anyone you're you're looking to interact with. I do think, you know, there are like, like I said, there are some fertility clinics that have specially trained psychologists who um really kind of have been trained in this area. Oftentimes, what I do find in that is you still have to find someone who can work with couples. Right. Yeah, because generally the the focus is on really helping the partner who's trying to become pregnant deal with the process of infertility.

SPEAKER_05 46:23

And even still, if the background matches, it doesn't mean the fit feels right. Um, and that it all matters. It's really tough. I guess like me and but it's worth doing and it's worth trying. And like, oh, that that wasn't a great fit, rather than saying this process doesn't work. Like, no, like you we don't go and get a terrible haircut and say, well, haircuts aren't for me. You say like that was not a good fit.

SPEAKER_03 46:47

Well, and there there is a field too of of um psychology called uh infant maternal fetal psychology, where like it's specifically focused on this pregnancy and utero birthing kind of time period of someone's life. But again, yeah, it just it that's not necessarily about the couple relationship, that's oftentimes again about the partner who's trying to become pregnant, and then um even more specifically, like what happens out if they do have a child, like just those attachment processes that happen. And so I I think the reason this is this is hard is because it's hard. And the reason that people feel like there's a dearth of like resources is because there's a dearth of resources. Um, and so I think that that's really a really sad part.

SPEAKER_05 47:35

We've been talking about working on compiling, be people reach out to us and give us their info, like, hey, we work with this kind of population, and like we've been talking like um it's tricky. I imagine the same for you is what I was thinking. Um, because we can't endorse them. I don't know anything about them. It's like, oh, I don't know how to do that. Um, but I think that there are pages that do have resources and call, get a feel, see what the conversation's like, ask for a free consult, ask what they specialize in before you even tell them what you're looking for. Uh, but but try out some things before you just go to one, oh, it didn't feel like a good fit. No, oh, it didn't work.

SPEAKER_02 48:15

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 48:17

I think this is a good segue to say you guys may need to write a new book. We have too tired to find the what too tired to conceive or something. I think this is what we're leading into, is there needs to be another book. I love it.

SPEAKER_02 48:30

We we have it is something we take that title too tired to conceive, yeah.

SPEAKER_05 48:35

Go ahead and copyright that. Could that not be yeah, it's it's exhausting, emotionally, spiritually, physically, holistically, just exhausting um when you want to have the most energy and excitement and it's not always there.

SPEAKER_03 48:51

And and I even think things like this. So if someone is listening to this podcast, like this can be a resource for you too. Like invite your partner to sit down and listen to it with you and just see if it allows you to have a conversation. Just the smallest uh invitation uh sometimes is is the the best. And opens the door for that. Um, because it is so it is so important um to tell each other these stories.

SPEAKER_01 49:22

Now tell our audience where to find you guys, how to connect, how to listen, all the things so they can get more of you guys. Because we don't, you guys don't just cover the trying to conceive. We are like the whole parenthood pregnancy parenting.

SPEAKER_03 49:36

Yeah, yeah. So if you you can find us on uh at our website, couples counseling for parents.com. You can find us on Instagram at Couples Counseling for Parents. Uh, you can find our book, Too Tired to Fight, at your local books bookstore or wherever you get books online. You can there's also an audio book so you can listen to it or read it. And our podcast is couples counseling for parents.

SPEAKER_05 49:58

And you can Google couples counseling for parents, you're gonna find us.

SPEAKER_03 50:01

You're gonna find us. Yeah, and and the podcast is on you know all the major um podcast platforms, Apple and Spotify, Google Play, all that kind of stuff.

SPEAKER_05 50:10

And so you can find our new book, Too Tired to Conceive.

SPEAKER_03 50:12

That's right.

SPEAKER_05 50:13

Yes, that's that's incoming out seven.

SPEAKER_01 50:16

Yeah, yes.

What We Wish We Knew

SPEAKER_01 50:17

I am I'm putting it out there before I let y'all go. You know, last before I've asked you questions of like what would you tell yourselves about parenting? Let's switch it up for the theme of this episode. What would you each tell yourselves about trying to conceive before you start it?

SPEAKER_03 50:33

That's a great question. I think what I have told myself after the fact is just because you want to have kids doesn't mean you get to have kids. And I didn't know that. And I and I wish I had I had known that. That doesn't mean you don't try to have kids. It doesn't, but I just coming in with that perspective I think helps everything um you do matter in a different way. And I I think that that would have been really, really, really useful um for me to to know. I hated finding it out, but that was really that was brutal.

SPEAKER_05 51:15

It's a terrible club. I it's a it's a club nobody wants. I do think, and this is not what my answer would be, but I do think it has shaped us as a couple and as parents in the most beautiful ways. I think it has m made us so much richer, so much deeper, which again with our kids and whether or not Yeah. I mean, we take nothing. Well, I think we we try really hard to not take things for granted. And every day does feel like this precious thing, even just like, okay, we made it. We did this really hard thing together and we talked about it. Um, so but uh that especially when you're in it, I think that can feel like the most disgusting thing to hear. So I already almost apologize for that. Um you're gonna really appreciate it and be better off because of it. Like, no, thanks. Like I wouldn't wish that on anybody. So, but I think what I would have told myself is how brave um to to continue to want something and to continue to try and continue to ask and make a way. Um, because I just sort of put my head down and said, like, well, other people are doing it, it seems easy for them. Like, oh, this must be easy, like, oh, but like, no, this is a really brave thing, and you're doing a really hard thing. And like, good on you for waking up and being vulnerable and sad. We were never quiet.

SPEAKER_03 52:31

Um about how we felt about it.

SPEAKER_05 52:34

Our journey, yeah, along the way. Our I think we tried really hard not to be quiet anyway, and I'm so proud of us for that. Um, it a lot of people, I think, feel like they're supposed to be quiet, and it has to be this thing you do alone and even within your own home alone. And I like it's a brave thing to be vulnerable and to be broken. It's brave, and that's beautiful.

SPEAKER_01 52:57

Yeah. Well, as always, you guys were such pleasure, and you guys pour into us, and we appreciate your vulnerability and transparency because you know, you you go home with each other still, and you're like, you know, you still are putting it all out there, and people don't recognize how hard it is on a public platform to be honest about your experience and be truthful. But this is how we heal, and as always, biggest fans of you guys. So I appreciate you all. Thank you so much, Sarah.

SPEAKER_03 53:25

Yeah, thank you so much.

SPEAKER_01 53:27

All right, guys, we will be back next week, but have a wonderful week.

Closing And Previe Alliance Mission

SPEAKER_00 53:33

Maternal mental health is as important as physical health. The Preview Alliance podcast was created for and by moms dealing with postpartum depression and all its variables like anxiety, anger, and even apathy. Hosted by CEO, founder Sarah Parkers, and licensed clinical social worker Whitney Gay, each episode focuses on specific issues relevant to pregnancy and postpartum. Join us and hear how other moms have overcome mental health challenges as well as access tips and suggestions on dealing with your own challenges as moms. You can also browse our podcast library and listen to previous episodes at any time. Please know you're not alone on this journey. We're here to help.