Content Warning And Case Context

SPEAKER_00 0:09

Hi guys, welcome back to Preview Alliance podcast. And I have got my favorite person in the world. You guys love her. Now, before Paige we get into this, I'm gonna do a hard stop in case we are not in the place to listen to this. Guys, we are going to talk about Lindsay Clancy Trial. So if this is not something that you're in the headspace for, pause. Come back to us when you are, or send it to your friends who are blowing up your group chat about it like mine, which is why Paige, I said, come on, my friend, we have to talk about this.

SPEAKER_01 0:43

So glad to be here with you, Sarah. As always, you're one of my favorite people. And this is a topic that I care so deeply about and like you have been following very closely.

SPEAKER_00 0:53

So I look forward to the opportunity to talk about it. And if somebody's been living under a rock and doesn't know who Paige Willenbaum is, tell us who you are and why you are the perfect person to talk about this.

SPEAKER_01 1:06

Oh, that's uh I don't know if I'm the perfect person, but I'll tell you a little bit about who I am. So, in a nutshell, and this applies to the case, I am one of those many hundreds of thousands of women that have struggled with a perenatal mood and anxiety disorder, had severe postpartum depression and anxiety after the birth of my son several years ago. And even as a licensed clinical social worker who is trained to recognize mental illness and others, I have no idea what was happening to me. Uh, struggled for nine months without getting help and then finally did and started to get better. And in that process of getting better, got extraordinarily angry that so many women that I spoke to are either struggling with a perenatal mood and anxiety disorder or had. And really, over the past two decades, has been my life's work to make sure that other new and expecting mothers do not have to struggle silently like I did. And opened up an organization called the Motherhood Center back in 2017, and

Paige’s Story And Why She Cares

SPEAKER_01 2:10

recently took on a role overseeing strategy and implementation at the Center for the Transition to Parenthood up at Columbia University Medical Center. So again, super excited to be here. And also, the more that we can talk about the complexities of this case and what it means for new and expecting mothers and providers and society, I really think that this is the silver lining of this tragedy. It is an opening for change. And I'm hopeful that we're gonna see ripple effects of change as a result in all kinds of systems so that we make sure tragedies like this don't happen again.

SPEAKER_00 2:55

Absolutely. And you know, I've been very open with my struggles, and I so many of my moms and the and in the group chats. When we have heard Lindsay's journal entries of the brain fog, she's so desperate for sleep. She feels like she's asking for help. She's not getting help. She feels like she's failing out as a mom. She doesn't recognize herself. Her marriage is failing. She is a nurse. She was a labor delivery nurse. She, all her neighbors are saying she looks so well together. She was able to take her child to the pediatrician right before. She was functioning. She's this outside looking in, a mom, right? She's not what when people hear postpartum depression anxiety, postpartum psychoses, which I want you to differentiate for us. It doesn't fit the picture of mental illness that society wants us to have. A good mom who looks good and takes care of her kids, she shouldn't struggle, Paige.

SPEAKER_01 3:53

You know, this is such an important part of the case, and so important for your listeners to understand. In the decades of work that I have done clinically with new and expecting mothers and birthing people, uh, one thing that rings true and that you will hear probably every provider who works with the perenatal population say is you cannot judge a book by its cover.

SPEAKER_00 4:19

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 4:20

Mothers go to exorbitant lengths to hide their symptoms and their struggle. We live in a culture that has gone above and beyond, especially now, of romanticizing and glamorizing this transition to motherhood. It is packaged as this truly blissful, beautiful, most amazing thing that will ever happen to you. You will give birth and the heavens will come, the angels will come down and the heavens will part, and you'll feel unconditional love and bonding with your baby. And as you move through the postpartum period, you will feel this incredible connection. You will understand your self-worth. You will be the happiest you have ever been. And while for some people that might be the case, for a whole heck of other people, it's not. And for even others, it's somewhere in between. And because we have this construct in society that spoon feeds us this version of what motherhood is supposed to and should look like and feel like, women go to great lengths to try to live up to that expectation and look the part, even though they might be absolutely falling apart inside. And I think that this Clancy case is a perfect representation of how hard mothers try to appear to the outside world, oftentimes for fear of judgment, because they feel ashamed and guilty, because they think they're not supposed to or shouldn't be struggling in this way. And also, let's be honest, right? If I tell anyone how I'm feeling or the thoughts I'm having about ending my own life or potentially harming someone else, they might take my baby away. We start to understand why people can look healthy and well on the outside and be completely decompensating on the inside. When I was working at the Motherhood Center, the clinicians and I would often

The Myth Of The Perfect Mom

SPEAKER_01 6:20

say, you know, you would have a totally well put together pregnant or postpartum person walk into the office, sit in the waiting area, and we might be like, is she a movie star? Is she a journalist? Is she famous? In fact, she was our illest patient. But she was trying so hard to pretend that it wasn't happening that you would never know by looking at her.

SPEAKER_00 6:45

Yeah. No, I mean, I personally did that. And I think that's what's so triggering to me and so many other moms is we felt those thoughts. And we may or may not have shared that. And we were so scared of those thoughts. And no one educated us about those thoughts. So those thoughts become so much more scarier to us. And intrusive thoughts happen to almost every single new mom, right? The book Good Moms Have Scary Thoughts, which that's been brought into court quite a bit recently, right? And there's of course different levels to thoughts, but again, it's going, I think there's a part of anybody who has suffered going, that could have been me. And that's really scary. And then the fact that some people are putting her as such a monster witch. Two things can be true. We can grieve, and it's an incredible tragedy for these three children that will never get back. And that is a complete and total devastation. It's also devastating the portrayal of maternal mental health that's occurring on the stake, and that we've lost humanity of mothers that experience mental health.

SPEAKER_01 7:59

Yeah, I I you know, I want to speak to the fact that so many women, either in the perenatal period or even mothers like myself, where my children are in college, this trial brings us back to our own lived experience. It is activating, it is painful, it is relatable. So many of us can relate to what Lindsay's journals have shown us, right? The meticulous nature of recording her feelings and her thoughts and the pain in what she was experiencing, right? So many of us can relate to that experience, particularly in the postpartum period, whether it's our first or our fourth child, we know what it's like to be there. And so this is this is uh, you know, it's it's opening a wound for so many of us who even have some distance from our own lived experience. Because to your point, it's very easy to make that connection. That could have been me. And I'll go so far into some instances of women who I've I've treated in the past that have experienced psychosis. And why am I so lucky, right? As survivors guilt, that could have been me. Why was I spared, right? And that's powerful. One thing I want to be careful of and around is that while people

Psychosis OCD And Care Gaps

SPEAKER_01 9:30

might relate to much of what Lindsay was struggling with, we know to be true that under the umbrella of perinatal mood and anxiety disorders, there are very distinctive conditions that are different from one another. So if I experienced perinatal anxiety or depression, that doesn't mean that I could have also been psychotic. I share this because I want to make sure people are clear. These are very distinct illnesses. And because I have experienced anxiety or depression, it doesn't mean my trajectory is that I'm gonna develop psychosis. No, these are totally separate and independent illnesses. Now, people can experience comorbidity where they have different conditions happening simultaneously, but I just want to make sure that people understand psychosis is a very separate illness. And one of the things that's really interesting to me through the clinical lens, as I as I take in this case day by day, there's so little that we know about psychosis. There's so little research, there's so little training and education, there are so few providers. I think the last count was that in our country, there are around 500 reproductive psychiatrists across the United States of America that are that specialize in treating these illnesses with evidence-based appropriate medications that are safe and effective to take during pregnancy in the postpartum. And that without understanding how these conditions differ from one another, how blurry this can be. And one of the things that I'm noticing, and again, I just want to preface this by saying I never treated Lindsay. This is not my case. All I can do by formulating this perception is based on the information being put in front of all of us, of what an OCD quality there is to her illness, right? And how that is shown in so much of what we're hearing, Googling something 60 to 100 times in one sitting, constantly reaching out to her providers, asking for help through my charts or by calling, her constant search and quest to find the right medication, the right provider. When I hear this, this is all part of the pathology of the illness that sounds very, very similar to obsessive-compulsive disorder. And the reason why I say this is because we have so little research and we have so little expertise in this area. OCD and psychosis can get real cozy with one another. And there can be an enormous amount of overlap. So, again, one of the things that I think we're all seeing as this case develops, and I just want to say, right, I have such support for the clinical field. I do believe that everybody was trying to do right by Lindsay within the capacity of which they were trained and educated to work. I think what we're seeing is this disconnect in our healthcare system, where there are a lot of different players that are touching the patient, and yet there is little to no collaboration. So if I'm a psychiatrist treating her over here, and another psychiatrist is treating her over here, and an inpatient unit is treating her over here, and nobody's talking, we're all just getting one piece of the puzzle without putting it all together. And I think there is opportunity there as a healthcare system to look at how we better attempt to bring that collaboration together.

SPEAKER_00 13:37

And the reality is maternal mental health conditions, most common complication of pregnancy childwork, right? Now, postprime depression, anxiety. We see numbers one in three, one in four. Postpartum psychoses, right? We're hearing one in two and a thousand, correct me if I'm wrong, which we were saying in off-camera defense said a very great analogy of that, right? Of it was Finnway, was it Fenway? Is that what he said?

SPEAKER_01 14:06

Fenway. 76 people in Fenway, if you had it filled. That's really powerful.

SPEAKER_00 14:13

That's super powerful because then that's hard to ignore, right? Because it's they're wanting to put postpartum psychoses in this tiny little box that she's a oddity, that this is something that we don't have to deal with. This was, you know, kind of whatever it was. But in reality, it is a medical emergency along the lines of a heart attack and stroke. Yet we can guarantee, Paige, every single person that's listening to this, no one was educated unless this, unless you're an active listener of trivialized podcasts, which we have hounded that. And no one talks about postmodern depression. No one's certainly gonna talk about postmodern psychoses, where you are hearing these thoughts that are of harming yourself and others and commands and hallucinations. You're not gonna talk about that when you're on your Pinterest board building your nursery.

SPEAKER_01 15:06

Gosh, there's so much, there's so much education that needs to happen in this space. And to your point, I thought the defense's argument around how common this is when you look at it on a more macro grid. So to your point, yes, we believe that one to two per 1,000 births are impacted by perinatal psychosis. And you'll listen to me. I'm saying perinatal because we've moved away from just saying postpartum. Psychosis can happen during pregnancy, although the majority of cases transpire in the immediate postpartum. So we're talking first few days to first few weeks. What's so important and

Intrusive Thoughts Versus Delusions

SPEAKER_01 15:50

why universal education should be applied and required for every discipline is that we know, to your point, that about 80% of all new mothers and pregnant people have something called scary intrusive thoughts, right? And this can be thoughts of harm coming to the baby, and more often than not, mom being the one who causes the harm. So, what does that look like a scary intrusive thought? I'm afraid to get near the stairs because I'm afraid I might accidentally throw my baby down the stairs. I'm afraid to get near the window because I'm afraid I might throw my baby out the window. I'm afraid to go in the kitchen because I think I might put my baby in the microwave, right? So when we hear these things and they escalate, I'm gonna, I'm gonna protect your your listeners from some of the other types of intrusive thoughts that women frequently have that can be very scary to hear if you're somebody who's not trained in determining the difference between a scary intrusive thought and a delusion. That when we don't know how common it is for new mothers to have these thoughts, we can't lead with things like it's super common for new and expecting moms to experience something called scary intrusive thoughts. This is what they can look like and sound like. Has that ever happened to you? Right? We're giving someone permission to say, oh my gosh, I'm so glad you said that. I've been having these scary intrusive thoughts of losing my baby in the bed sheets when I wake up and not being able to find my baby, or whatever that scary, intrusive thought might look like. And so when we don't know the difference between a scary intrusive thought and a delusion, then we're not asking the right questions, right? As a trained clinician in perinatal mental health, we are taught and we know that if somebody is experiencing a scary intrusive thought, we need to push further. And I don't mean to simplify an assessment, but I'm offering you one question that we many of us lead with. Is that something you would ever actually do to your baby? 99% of the time, somebody who's experiencing scary intrusive thoughts, most often aligned with an OCD diagnosis, will say, I would never do that to my baby. That thought is so scary, it's so distressing to me. That's what we refer to as an egodystonic thought. Now, if somebody comes to me and says, I believe that my baby is the devil, and I have been having thoughts of drowning my baby because I believe that this is the only way to ensure eternal salvation. I'm gonna ask the question, would you ever do that to your baby? And somebody who's psychotic will say, not always, but very likely, yes, of course I'm gonna do that to my baby, because that's the only way that I can save them. That's what we refer to as an egosyntonic thought. It means that that thought is aligning with their values and the way that they are seeing the world in that moment. Providers don't know the difference here, right? They don't know how to ask the question. They don't know what to do when they get the answer to the question. So, one of the things that we're seeing is just the dearth in specialized training for clinicians and providers in the entire perenatal care ecosystem, whether you're a therapist or you're a prescriber or you're a doula or you're a lactation consultant, whoever you are, you are touching a new and expecting mother. You have to have some level of awareness of these illnesses. You don't have to necessarily know how to treat them, but you sure have to know what they look like and you need to know what to do, especially if somebody is in a state of crisis, which Lindsay had been screaming for months.

SPEAKER_00 19:44

Screaming and months. And it's so, and I think people they're going, they're waking up and you can see the different commentary on it. And it's and it's so different, I think, especially lived experiences, like we talked about, because you're just like, I asked for help, or I tried. I was gaslit by my provider, or I was told you'll be okay, you know, or you know, women have been given birth since the beginning of time. You know, this is not a new thing, you know. And I think it's too you you have such a hard concept, and I've constantly been saying to people, I still knowing all this, I go, How have we failed moms constantly? How have we gave the ones who hold our society together, who bring life, know anybody to care for their mental health? And people go, What do you mean? I go, Well, you know, accreditations for psychiatry residents, they don't have to be educated on pregnancy and postpartum mental health, they may never have treated a postpartum depression or psychoses. And they go, Are you kidding me? And I'm like, look it up. Ask people, right? Because psychiatry, you assume like people go, Oh, I'm gonna go to a psychiatrist and they're gonna know how to treat me because I'm pregnant or postpartum. No, that's not true. I'm gonna go to a therapist, they're gonna know how to talk to me about untruths of thought. No, that's not true. Well, my OB, I'm sure, knows what to do. No, that's not true. Because we have not had someone wake up, regulations, boards, our politicians, even though mothers have been screaming, help us, help us, and say, enough. We are going to mandate this training. I mean, this was she was in Boston and we're in Alabama. We said this to you before. What would an Alabama mom do? We don't even have a reproductive psychiatrist in our state. We don't have an inpatient, we don't have a motherhood center.

SPEAKER_01 21:39

So, yes to everything you're saying. And I want to also offer some motivation to your listeners, especially those that are clinicians. Yes, that is the state of the affairs, and yes, we ourselves can do more about it. So, as a social worker, as a proud part of my identity. I have been trying for years to convince schools of social work to offer a perinatal mental health course. And I was so grateful to join forces with the Silverman School of Social Work at Hunter College here in New York about three years ago at this point, with a with a professor on the inside who also treats perinatal moon and anxiety disorders, who is a go-getter and who cares about this issue, who said, I want you to develop this curriculum, the syllabus, I want you to bring it in and I want you to teach it. And within less than a year, I was teaching one of the only perenatal mental health courses in a school of social work starting the fourth semester. When I tell you this class has a wait list and it has to be extended every time that it's available because so many people are interested in taking this class and learning more. Why did I, lowly little me social worker, do this? For this reason. Because social workers aren't exposed to this. Psychologists aren't exposed to this. And after the success of this class, I was like, this needs to be mandatory. And ended up working with the city council here in New York and the state legislature of New York State, and was able to draft and get introduced two bills that require our public education system, so our CUNY and SUNY schools of social work to offer a perinatal mental health course. So that means these students are getting a full semester and we're about to make it a year-long program. And also in the process of potentially writing a textbook to accompany the class, this is the type of sea change that we need to see happening in all of these different disciplines so that women like Lindsay don't fall through the cracks anymore because we all know what this is. We all know how to intervene, how to screen, how to treat. And we all know how to make sure that these moms that are drowning in plain sight, that we don't just sit back and watch them drown. We throw them the life preserver, we pull them out of the ocean, and we are able to save them hypothetically and realistically because we know what to do.

SPEAKER_00 24:22

I mean, the you know, previous were always education forward, and people, people always say, Well, why do you start early? And I said, Well, just think about this again, our picture of OB care. How many appointments do we see to check on baby through pregnancy? She has one six-week appointment postpartum,

Training Screening And System Fixes

SPEAKER_00 24:40

which you know, over 50% don't attend. So it's like you she may be screened once for depression or anxiety during pregnancy and maybe once, if that. So the conversation has to start early with moms. And I tell people they're like, Well, what can I do? It's like, well, you know what? Share your lived experience. I think that's a huge thing. Be vulnerable. Is it uncomfortable to say I had these thoughts? I I felt suicidal. I, you know, this trial is bringing a lot of memories up to me. Sure. But then you open a conversation for someone else to be vulnerable. And that's where change happens. And that's when you really are going to get those wills in motion and change like you did occurred. And, you know, it's I tell people, I'm like, it's not the clinician's faults either. This lack of information, we want to villainize clinicians who are taking this on. It's like, no, this is again, if they're not offered in the residency, they're not offered in their master's program. It's on them to get that experience outside of that. That's a good mentor. So it is. I tell people the failure. I always say, how could I not have experienced postpartum depression? I think a lot of moms have seen this trial going, she asked for help. She tried. She was doing everything she could. We're really just seeing, like you said, the gaps of where moms fall. It's like truly whack-a-mole out there of moms trying to get help. But if you're struggling, I would always say, you know, definitely go to a provider. You may have to go to multiple providers to find someone who listens, but also talk to a mom, someone who's been like, I've been there. I'm going to check on you too. Like share it because what we're seeing with her husband and a lot of men and a lot of spouses and partners, they don't understand it.

SPEAKER_01 26:29

No. And you know, as we think kind of out of the box and creatively, uh, I was speaking to someone a few days ago and I was like, wow, that's a great idea. So to your point, a couple of things. One, as I mentioned before, we cannot put the onus on the mother to be responsible for being on top of her symptoms, A, B carrying on to pick up the phone and call providers only to be told that there's a six-month wait list for them to get in and then give up, right? Like women that are struggling with depression and anxiety and some of these other illnesses are not typically in a position to also have to take care of themselves in that way. Hence the critical need for yes, community, in particular, partners, parents, friends, family members, everybody understanding what these illnesses look like so that everybody knows what to do. So, in mentioning a conversation I had a few days ago with someone, imagine if we lived in a world where, and this is just one example, partners were required to go to the glucose testing that pregnant women go through, right? We know for those of us that have had children, now mine was a lot longer ago, so I don't know if it's quicker now. You spend a good couple hours sitting in that office waiting for your glucose results. What if we had a 45-minute seminar, webinar training for couples to watch while they were waiting on perinatal mental health? How common it is, what it looks like, what are the signs and symptoms? What do you do if your loved one is struggling, right? Making sure that every single person is being provided with psychoeducation, literature, resources as a part of standardized care, right? If we cared about this as a country, if this was important, which it's so glaringly not, which is so being put on display in this case, there are simple levers we could pull to make sure that every single expecting person and couple and society was having access to this information. It's not a priority. As you said, it is mind-blowing to me that every single one of us on this planet, including our president, has a mother. Everybody exists because they had a mother or birthing person who grew them inside of their bodies, gave birth to them, nurtured them to the best of their ability. We wouldn't be here if it wasn't for our society, it would cease to exist. How is it that we have fallen so low in prioritizing, to your point, the very fabric of society? It's not that we don't know what to do. It's we haven't decided that it's important enough.

SPEAKER_00 29:34

That women, that mothers I think we're all going, I always felt like I didn't matter, but I'm seeing it in healthcare in my face every single day that no, I don't matter. That I'm expected to be pregnant and have this baby and be happy and smile through it and not express anything of my mental health. And that's how it feels. And, you know, as we mentioned earlier, if you have experience you just feel so triggered from it and you called yourself a monster, even if you didn't have real, you know, OCD or psychoses, you felt that way. And for those people who did have psychoses who are going, oh wow, you know, I'm being put on display my experience. And I don't know, I think I would um while we wrap up, I want you just to speak to those moms because I think we're just burning in our chest a little bit. What would you A challenge them and B say to them in this time of it's it's a lot. I want to say, I see you.

SPEAKER_01 30:36

I see your pain, I see your struggle. I can't imagine how difficult it is for you to bear witness to something that feels so personal and relatable. It must be reactivating your own lived experience, no matter how uh short of a time has passed or how long of a time has passed. And I just want you to know that I and we see you. This is so hard to watch because it could have been any one of us. And I want to encourage people to be talking about what it's like. What it's like to watch this and what it's bringing up in you, right? If you don't have a therapist, I think everybody should be in therapy. Pick up the phone and call a friend. Talk to your partner, talk to the people around you that love you and let them know what it's like to be in your body and to be having these thoughts that feel so close to home. Processing this experience is critical. When we process it and we give it words, it can help take away the power that the experience has over us when we're able to share it. I want you to be so caring of yourself, forgiving of yourself. I want to invite you to be compassionate that you yourself went through such a painful and difficult time and perhaps you felt unseen and unheard. And I want you to figure out ways that you can honor that pain, whether it is doing something for yourself that feels good in that moment. I really want you to prioritize your state and what you're feeling. And don't take that lightly, don't push it under the rug, don't say her story was worse than mine, more tragic than mine. You know, I'm mine doesn't even compare to that. Doesn't matter if you had a mild PMAT, a moderate PMAT, or a severe PMAT. That is your experience and it's important and it matters. And so I want to invite people to tend to that and be as compassionate as you can and to take care of yourself in these very, very difficult moments because this is a part of who we are. It doesn't go away.

SPEAKER_00 32:50

It's always there. And I would say, you know, all the Instagram and what's happening too is it's it's almost becoming like sententialized. Like it's like a movie out there, they're clipping it, they're playing it. And I thought to myself the other day, I said, wow, I wonder if the same amount of almost clickbait ish that were happening with some of the parts of the trial was education. If we put that much energy into like Paige being on the clips, educating, shared love experiences. This is what I experienced. You know, I want to this is the things I wish I would have known. This is what helped me. How much could that move the needle?

SPEAKER_01 33:29

I mean, it would move it so far in the right direction, we might not even see it anymore, which is exactly where we want to be. You know, in an organic way, it's happening. Yeah. Conversations are happening in a way that we've never seen before. There is a national, if not international, spotlight being shown so brightly onto this case. This is a wake-up call. This is a wake-up call for everybody that surrounds a pregnant and postpartum person, for clinicians, for other new and expecting moms and their partners, for family members, for friends. We're seeing her parents, right, that are there every day showing up in support of their daughter. We can only imagine what it is like for them to hold space for all of this, right? The what-ifs, all the what-ifs. This is an opportunity to change the conversation in one of the most meaningful ways that in my lifetime I can connect to. We have an opportunity to not just let the attention that perenatal mental health is getting in this moment close after this case ends. This is an opportunity to continue to use this as a catalyst for change. So I see all of these conversations that are happening in every different type of circle and discipline. This is such an opportunity. And I just only hope that this is only the beginning that continues to push that needle in the direction it needs to be, which is information, education, training, universal screening, collaborative care, and effective treatment, right? That is designed specifically for paranatal mental health conditions. All of these things exist. We have access to all of these things. Let's put it out into the mainstream and let's make sure that everybody knows how to play their part so that women don't continue to fall through the cracks as they have ever since people

Resources For Clinicians And Parents

SPEAKER_01 35:45

existed.

SPEAKER_00 35:46

Yeah. Well, Paige, if you have litifier into people like you always do to me to make a change, and what is some easy resources or things that they're like, I want to get involved from clinician level to a mom who's listening right now who wants to use her voice? How would you direct them to do that?

SPEAKER_01 36:02

Yeah, I mean, I think PSI has done such phenomenal work in creating very specialized training in perinatal mental health that can lead to a certification called the PMHC or the Parinatal Mental Health Certification. I'm a proud trainer with PSI. So I am in there training clinicians to be able to meet all of the boxes that I just listed and check them the screening, the treatment, the education, and the resources. So that's a wonderful place to go for training and education. And then I would say for people who want to make a difference more in a macro level, we have some wonderful organizations doing policy work. We have the Maternal Mental Health Leadership Alliance, MMHLA. We have the Policy Center on Maternal Mental Health. These are organizations that are dedicated to impacting macro level policy change as it pertains to perinatal mental health. So these are three groups that I highly encourage people to check out, become a member. There are PSI chapters in every city, in every state around the country, and also in several other countries across the world. These are some of the ways that I encourage people to get involved and make a difference. And no matter who you are, right, you know people. If it wasn't you that struggled with a perenatal mood and anxiety disorder, you might know someone right now who's struggling. And they might have their makeup on and they might have their hair done and they might have a smile on their face, but do not ever assume that that's what's going on on the inside. And sometimes it can be as simple as asking the question, how are you doing? How are you feeling? What's this like for you? Those questions can go so far in opening up the door of somebody being able to say, This is actually really hard and I need help.

SPEAKER_00 37:54

I love it. Paige, I love you. I love everything you're doing. I'm thankful for you. And guys, if you haven't heard my other discussions with Paige, we've got some really good ones. More about what social work can do. If you're a social worker, tag that one. Paige's own personal experience. If you're like, I want to know more about what started this for this amazing powerhouse woman, go back and listen. But Paige, always my friend, go change the world like you're doing every day for us.

SPEAKER_01 38:20

Right back at you, Sarah. It's always such a pleasure to be here with you. Thank you for shining a light on this and doing all the work you do. And I hope I'll be back again someday soon.

SPEAKER_00 38:29

Never gonna let you leave. The listeners and me, you're we're tired. We're we're just we're with you forever. Perfect.

Share This And Push For Change

unknown 38:35

Thank you.

SPEAKER_00 38:36

All right, listeners. Thank you for hanging in there. I know it was a tough conversation, but you want to share it and send it to your friends. And if you don't even know what else to say to your representatives, write to them. Send on the Preview Alliance podcast. And guess what? Hook them up with Paige, and she will tell them exactly what they need to do to change this world. So thank you guys. Thanks, Sarah. Thanks, everyone. Maternal mental health is as important as physical health. The Preview Alliance podcast was created for and by moms dealing with postpartum depression and all its variables, like anxiety, anger, and even apathy. Hosted by CEO, founder Sarah Parkers, and licensed clinical social worker Whitney Gay, each episode focuses on specific issues relevant to pregnancy and postpartum. Join us and hear how other moms have overcome mental health challenges as well as access tips and suggestions when dealing with your own challenges as moms. You can also browse our podcast library and listen to previous episodes at any time. Please know you're not alone on this journey. We're here to help.